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Episode 76

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Published on:

14th Apr 2025

WELCOME TO OUR KITCHEN: We're talking about the step-by-step process of publishing a cookbook!

Writing a cookbook is only one part of the process. And we should know! We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, authors of over three dozen cookbooks under our own names, plus more for celebrities and GI doctors.

It's a long process to get a cookbook into a bookstore (and into your hands). We thought we'd take the time and explain why it takes about two and a half years for a cookbook to finally be for sale.

Join us for an insider look at the steps to creating and publishing a cookbook. Plus, a one-minute cooking tip. And the answer to "what's making us happy in food this week?"

Would you like your own copy of our latest cookbook, COLD CANNING? Click this link right here.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[00:58] Our one-minute cooking tip: Freeze fresh ginger to keep it tasty!

[02:54] An insider look at the many steps to get to a cookbook: from proposal all the way to publication.

[31:08] What’s making us happy in food this week? Citarella for gefilte fish and goose eggs!

Transcript
Bruce:

Hey, I am Bruce Weinstein, and this is the Podcast

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Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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mark: And I'm Mark Scarbrough, and

together with Bruce, my husband, we

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have written three dozen cookbooks.

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We're about to publish our

37th this summer, cold canning.

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We've been talking about that on the

podcast, and we're gonna talk about

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cookbooks, but not about cold canning.

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In this episode, we're talking about the

entire process of writing a cookbook.

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This came up a couple weeks ago in

a previous episode, and a listener.

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Contacted me and said, but you

didn't make clear what the whole

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process is from developing the

idea through finding it in a store.

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And I was like, okay.

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Well we can on your seat belts.

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Yeah, buckle up.

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'cause this is a long process, but we're

gonna detail what that process actually

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looks like in terms of writing a cookbook.

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Of course.

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We've got a one minute cooking

tip and we'll tell you what's

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making us happy in food this week.

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So let's get started.

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Bruce: Our one minute cooking

tip, it's not me, mark did it.

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You go.

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mark: Yeah, it is me.

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So here's a one that you might

not know, but it's kind of crazy.

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If you buy Fresh Ginger, it can go very.

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Boggy and a hydrator after a couple weeks.

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Or it can get very dried out

and it can get very stringy.

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Mm.

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So here's a tip.

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Wrap it tightly in plastic wrap and

freeze it because if you freeze it, it

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will retain more of it spiky flavor.

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It won't develop those mushy

spots, it won't dry out.

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And here's a bonus.

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You can use a grater, particularly

the small little holes on your

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box grater to just grade it.

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Frozen.

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Bruce: Yep.

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Right from the freezer.

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Wrap it back up and put it back in.

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And you can peel it if you want,

before you freeze it or not.

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I tend to not peel it.

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If it's very fresh ginger and I

use the peel and you don't even

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know what's in there, or if it's

not the freshest before you freeze

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it, peel it, and then freeze it.

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What he's

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mark: saying is if you buy

ginger in an Asian market, you

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probably don't have to peel it.

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If you buy it in a.

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Standard North American, uk, or

Canadian supermarket, you probably

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do have to peel it because it's dried

out and gotten that husky outer skin

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to it, whatever that theme is.

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And if you grow it

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Bruce: yourself, then

you don't need to grow.

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Oh, well, whatever.

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I mean,

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mark: if you grow it yourself, you're

not listening to cooking with Bruce and

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Mark, so whatever you might be, doubt it.

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Okay.

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Let me say that we do have a newsletter.

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It comes out very sporadically at

this point, about once a month because

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we're both so busy with everything

else you related to do with work.

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But if you'd like to be a part of that

newsletter, which is not necessarily

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connected to this podcast, you can sign

up on our website, Bruce and mark.com,

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or cooking with Bruce and Mark dot.

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Com, they both go to the same place.

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If you drop down the landing page,

you'll see a place to sign up.

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Just to remind you, I don't capture

your email and I do not capture your

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name, nor do I let the provider do that.

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So your name and email can't ever be sold

and you won't be spammed out of existence.

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If you want that newsletter,

that's the way to get it.

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Just go to our website if

you're interested in that.

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Okay.

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Up next, the process

of writing a cookbook.

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Bruce: It all starts with an idea.

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Doesn't everything start

with an idea, I guess?

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mark: No, but Okay, go on.

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Bruce: But we have to

develop the ideas, right?

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Yeah.

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So we have to come up with

something that we like, right?

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Something that we think

our agent will like.

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Yep.

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And something that we think

our publisher would like.

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Yep.

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And something that we think our

publisher's marketing team will like.

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Yes.

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And once we get an idea that we

think they'll all like, we start

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putting it down on paper and

pushing it through the system.

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mark: Okay, so let me back

up and talk about this.

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Developing an idea.

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So basically what Bruce and I

are talking about is how we,

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after 37 cookbooks, how we do it.

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And we do it in this way.

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If you are a brand new cookbook writer.

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You basically have to start with a written

book, a written manuscript, unless you are

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an influencer with 50 billion followers.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or unless you're a celebrity, you have

to start with the actual book itself.

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So we are actually,

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Bruce: I'm sorry for

you if you to do that.

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I know.

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And

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mark: we're actually in the envious place

of, we no longer start with a written

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manuscript, so we have to develop an idea,

and this will take several months to do.

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In fact, we're currently working

on this and we have multiple gate.

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Keepers to get through.

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As Bruce said, we have to get it

through our agent and that's where we

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currently are in our new idea process.

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We're working with our agent

to come up with an idea and

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she is our first gatekeeper.

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We have to get through, she has to like

something in order to want to sell it.

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Then we have an additional

gatekeeper who is our publisher.

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We are fortunate to have the

same person is our editor and our

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publisher, and then he has gatekeepers.

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In our case it's a him.

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He has gatekeepers, which is the

marketing team at the publishing house.

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This idea is gonna have to get through

three different levels of gatekeepers.

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And uh, I think for us, the

most fraught one is the agent.

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But that's what I think because

the agent is, um, she's just

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getting a bunch of random ideas.

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I mean, literally she's being bombarded

with ideas via email and she's kind

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of, kind of sort through these and

some I end up writing a couple pages

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on some, I just send her an email on,

or Bruce will even call her about.

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She's just getting barraged by ideas and

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Bruce: it's hard because we're

not necessarily giving her, you

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know, blown out thought through.

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Here it is.

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Here's how the whole book looks.

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We're just throwing a

quick idea at her now.

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We've been with her for

over 30 years, right?

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So she has been a long

time relationship with us.

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We do kind of understand how we

all think together, so it is, we do

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easier, we do than, you know, a lot

of other agent client relationships.

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Um, but it is frustrating 'cause there'll

be times Mark and I think we have a

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brilliant idea and we'll run it by her.

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And then the words that come

back is, I don't get it.

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And then we have a choice we could

try and make her get it right.

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Or we can drop it.

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mark: Right?

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And just to say, uh, you know,

you may think, uh, wow, you, so

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you're the creative and you have

to pass this through an agent.

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But to be honest with you, she's

got a lot of credits behind her.

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She's been in the business

far longer than we have.

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She was the acquiring

agent for the Color Purple.

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She was the acquiring agent at

Simon Schuster for the world of.

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According to Garp.

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So let's just say that she's got a lot

of traction behind her and she does

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understand what sells and what doesn't.

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So it's not as if we're up against

somebody who's kind of on our level.

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We're up against somebody who we are,

who's slightly above us in terms of

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what can sell and what can't let,

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Bruce: let me say this about agents for

a second, and that is they know what

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will sell, but they will know what will

sell to their group of editors, right?

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Our agent doesn't have a relationship

with every single editor in New York.

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She has a relationship with a

lot and a big pool of editors at

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a big number of houses, but she

doesn't know each and every one.

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Correct.

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So she knows when she

says, I don't get it.

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It may be in response to an initial,

well, I probably can't sell that

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idea to the 15 editors I'm thinking

about right off the top of my head.

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Right.

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But that doesn't mean that there

aren't other editors out there who

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might buy it, but that's the deal.

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You sign, you work with an agent,

and that agent, of course works

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with just a bunch of editors, right?

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And it doesn't work with everybody.

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mark: Ours has been in the business

long enough that she has a relationship

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with lots of editors and publishers.

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And particularly with publishers.

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She is, but still, nonetheless,

we have to get it through her.

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And so I wanna just say that

this is the initial stage, and

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this takes multiple months.

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We've been working on this with

our agent since the first of:

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Right.

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So since I broke my leg months ago mm-hmm.

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We've been.

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This process, and we're about to enter

the second part of the process, which is

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presenting these ideas to our publisher.

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And once that happens, and

once he, and we and the agent

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agree, then he has to sell it.

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Bruce: Now, let me say we are in a

fortunate position that we can just

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bring ideas to our publisher, right?

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. Many people don't have longstanding

relationships with a publisher, so they're

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gonna sell an idea to their agent and then

their agent is gonna run ideas by three

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or four different editors of publishers

around town to find one interested

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enough to take a meeting to discuss it.

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We are very lucky.

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Our current publisher

has published our last.

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Eight books.

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And so we are looking to continue to work

together and it's on both directions.

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He wants to work with us,

we wanna work with him.

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So we are very fortunate that

the next step for us is a meeting

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with him to discuss these ideas.

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Right.

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mark: So let's assume that's

already happened and let's assume

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we've all agreed on an idea over

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Bruce: lunch.

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Usually Chinese food.

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mark: Yeah.

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That.

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Which our kosher agent can't

eat, um, yet we keep doing it.

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Let's assume that the four of us have

come to some kind of understanding.

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Now the question is selling the idea, and

here's where it gets a little bit more

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fraught, and that is, it falls on me.

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I'm the writer in the

team of the four of us.

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It falls on me to develop a proposal

and it is a formal business proposal.

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I have to write a 40 to 55 page,

somewhere in that range, 40 to 55

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page business proposal of why this.

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Title will sell and I

come up, draft up that.

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I come up with that

proposal, I draft it out.

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I of course work on it for a while.

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Then I give it to our agent.

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She sends it back to me with comments.

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Then finally, once she and I like it,

then it goes off to the publisher.

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He sends it back to me with

comments . And finally, at the end of.

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All of that, he can take that giant

business proposal to his sales meeting.

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So if developing the idea takes, mm,

let's say three months, this is about

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a two to three month process as well.

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This idea of developing the formal

proposal to get ready to sell the idea,

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Bruce: and lemme say what is.

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In that proposal is really interesting

because it is a description of

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what the book will be, of course.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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But it's also a description of the market.

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What other books have ever been written

that are kind of like this, if any?

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Maybe we're lucky enough to

come with a brand new idea.

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Rarely.

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Um, rarely.

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So we have to do a history of what

are the books have been written,

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how did they sell, and how were they

marketed and who were their audiences?

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And then we had to talk about.

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Our audience.

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So who do we think is the

audience for our book?

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And we need research for this.

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And also if the book is related to

an appliance, like we wrote all these

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instant pop books and air fryer books.

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In those cases we had to look

at trends, projections and sales

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projections of those appliances too.

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'cause they directly related to our book.

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And,

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mark: uh, part of the proposal too, and

I should add this part of the proposal is

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coming up with a recipe list for the book.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so it, part of this proposal

is what our recipes are gonna

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be included in the book.

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And I wanna say.

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Um, and this seems really crass, but the

recipe list that appears in the proposal

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is, uh, shall we say, tangential to what

will become the final recipe book in list.

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In the book itself.

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I mean, it's a idea.

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I use it as a guide, right?

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It's an idea to beginning, but it bare

rarely bears very close proximity.

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What to what actually gets

published on the line.

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Bruce: Let me say that the new

book called Canning, that proposal

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had about 200 recipe names in the.

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In the recipe list, in the proposal,

the final book had 425 recipes.

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I mean, most of the recipes

that are in our list tend to

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make it into the book, but

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mark: yeah, it, it's funny,

it depends on the books.

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Uh, we, if you look back at a

book ALA mode, uh, which we wrote

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years ago at when we were at St.

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Martin's, uh, that's a book with desserts

and ice creams to go with those desserts.

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Mm-hmm.

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The recipe list bears no resemblance

to the final book at all.

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So it's weird.

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Um, so, okay, so now we've got a few

months developing the idea, a two to

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three months selling the idea, writing

the proposal, and let's assume it sells.

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Let's assume that our publisher

goes off, do a sales meeting.

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It sells.

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They make offers.

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The offers go back and

forth between our agent.

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You know, it's the whole negotiation

thing, which is why you have an agent

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once you sign the contract, you actually

have to write the thing itself and set

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about making that proposal good as a book.

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And that takes.

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What, nine

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Bruce: months?

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10.

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And it depends.

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Your contract will tell you how

long you have to write the book.

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It does.

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I mean, our contract will tell

us how big the book is gonna be.

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It'll tell us how many recipes

have to be in that book.

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Right.

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It will not describe

the table of contents.

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It will not tell us how

many chapters we will work.

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On that as we create the book,

but it will tell us how many

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words the manuscript can be,

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mark: right?

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Bruce: And how many pictures

will be in the book.

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Right?

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And most important, it'll tell us

when that is due to the publisher.

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mark: Okay, let me explain

how the due date works.

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Basically, they take Google keyword

searches and they try to figure out

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when is a particular topic popular.

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In the course of a year,

they find out, let's say.

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For example, our co upcoming book, cold

Canning, they discovered that canning

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searches happen the most amount of

time in late June through early August.

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So therefore, they set the publication

of the book in July of:

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generally they set the due date.

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A year before that.

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So they work backwards a year from when

they think they wanna put it on sale.

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That doesn't always hold

out, but that's how it is.

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Now, I should tell you that we've

crashed books and in publishing,

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crashing means you're, you're

writing it with absolutely no time.

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What so.

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Ever.

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Yeah.

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Bruce: Where usually publishers

give themselves a year from when

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you turn it into publishing.

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When it's crashed, you might turn it in

and they'll publish it within six months.

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That is really fast for them,

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mark: they used to, in the old

days, called them blue files back

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when manuscripts came in as, as,

uh, actually print offs and people

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would work on them and blue, they

would be put into blue files.

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And a blue file meant when it hits your

desk, you can't work on anything else.

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You must only work on this book

in the publishing house because

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they're trying to push it out.

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When we wrote the Great American

Slow Cooker book, we had, I don't

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even remember, five or six months

to create 500 recipes for this book.

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It was a.

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Unbelievable.

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I, we had basically had to put our

lives on hold to create this book.

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Bruce: On any given day.

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I had 10 to 12 slow cookers

going insane all day, all day in

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mark: the kitchen.

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Insane.

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You've never seen

electric bills like these.

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And um, and uh, just to add to

the misery here, my laptop crashed

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halfway through writing this book.

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Well, more than halfway,

we were about done.

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It crashed because the.

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Book crashed it because it was too big for

the ram to hold, and so I had a print off

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of it and I had to retype an a thousand

page manuscript back into my laptop.

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It was before you could digitize pages.

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It was.

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Insane the amount of work that was.

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Okay, so you have a few

months to develop the idea.

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You have two to three

months to sell the idea.

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Then you get, let's say nine months

to a year to write the book, and now

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you enter the dreaded editing process.

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You turn the book in

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Bruce: and my job is done.

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I'm out of the kitchen and

Mark goes into hell time, and

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I get to spend time doing other

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mark: things.

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Yes.

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If your publisher or editor accepts the

book, now you enter the editing process.

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Oh, if.

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If that's an, if they have, that's

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Bruce: right.

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They can look at it and say,

Nope, you need to fix it.

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We've had books sent back to us.

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Of course, everybody has early on in

our career where they didn't, the editor

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didn't like the way recipes are formatted.

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They didn't like the way

we worded certain things.

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And rather than make that change

in every recipe as they edited.

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They just sent the whole thing back

and said, no, restructure this.

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And

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mark: Let me say that when you sign a

contract to publish a book, you get a

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chunk of money right at that moment of

signing, and then you get another chunk

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of money at what in publishing is called

DNA, which means delivery and acceptance.

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Bruce: It's that

acceptance part that's key.

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It's the acceptance because

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mark: uh, if they kick it

back in any way from editing,

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they have not yet accepted it.

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So your payment is being delayed in this

process, which makes it very frustrating.

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So you go into the editing process

and editors, of course, my editor

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has a lot to say about the book.

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He goes through it very carefully.

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He looks at it all.

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Say very carefully.

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Sometimes he tells me I'm

sitting in the parking lot of

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Home Depot editing your book.

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I'll get a text like that.

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But he's going through the

book on, um, his laptop.

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He's looking through it.

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He's Or his phone.

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Or his phone.

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He is making all kinds of changes to it.

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But I, you should know.

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Here's one of the things that's

interesting is editors don't copy.

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Edit.

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And I think that people still think

that editors sit there and say,

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this verb does not go with this

subject, or whatever, you know?

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Okay.

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Well

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Bruce: now you have to

explain in more detail.

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Okay.

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What's the difference between

editing and copying it?

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mark: Copy editing is the granular

bit, like, uh, you've used the

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:

present tense and now you suddenly.

393

:

Switch to the past tense in this ha

head note or, um, you've used this

394

:

word too many times or this old editing

thing of, I'm not quite sure this

395

:

sentence makes sense because you've

got your clauses in different orders.

396

:

That doesn't happen with editors anymore.

397

:

Editors are looking at the macro of it.

398

:

So they, what they're asking you

at this point mostly is, are the.

399

:

Order of the recipes, right?

400

:

Do the headnote actually, does it

introduce the recipe despite the

401

:

granular grammatical problems?

402

:

Does the headnote set up and

make me wanna make this recipe?

403

:

Are you selling each

recipe in the headnote?

404

:

These are all the

questions that editors ask.

405

:

Does the introduction to a chapter

actually set up the chapter?

406

:

Do you need to refocus this chapter?

407

:

Do you need to put more information

in the introduction to open the book?

408

:

Basically, they're making

all kinds of changes in.

409

:

Focus and even recipe layout,

the order of the recipes.

410

:

They might

411

:

Bruce: say let's pull these

recipes outta this chapter and

412

:

make it its own separate chapter.

413

:

Yes, they might.

414

:

That's something that can happen.

415

:

mark: We wrote sheet cakes and slab pies.

416

:

We were still at St.

417

:

Martin's at that point.

418

:

Our editor took my recipe list and the way

I set up the chapters, and she completely

419

:

rearranged the book and kicked it back,

and I had to write new introductions

420

:

for the chapters she had created.

421

:

Out of our recipes.

422

:

So my chapter introductions

didn't really fit anymore

423

:

because she rearranged the book.

424

:

Bruce: Now you have the right to

fight back against that a little.

425

:

You can say, I don't agree with you.

426

:

You can have a discussion about it.

427

:

You don't have to.

428

:

You can't to just lie down and

let them walk all over you.

429

:

mark: You can, but you're also trying,

you know, you're trying to be a compliant.

430

:

Uh, writer, you're trying to get

another book down the line and

431

:

you don't wanna be a problem.

432

:

So they expect pushback,

but not dramatic pushback.

433

:

So that's gonna take three to four months

to get it through editing, and after that.

434

:

Now they've accepted it.

435

:

Now you get your next payment of

money and then you, the book goes

436

:

into copy editing, which is where

it all hits that granular level.

437

:

And I will say that I have a copy

editor who we've worked with for

438

:

almost a dozen books now, and I.

439

:

Love her so much that I

essentially require her to be a

440

:

named commodity in the contract.

441

:

I mean, I want her to work on our books.

442

:

I trust her.

443

:

But you have a

444

:

Bruce: volatile relationship with her too.

445

:

Very volatile, has relationship,

has strong opinions, and sometimes.

446

:

We agree with them and sometimes we

447

:

mark: don't.

448

:

I, that's why I like her.

449

:

Uh, I always say about my copy editor,

and she may be listening to this episode,

450

:

and I always say about her that she's not

for the thin skinned, but that's okay.

451

:

I'm not thin skinned.

452

:

And, uh, she can come at me with, uh,

what she's got and I am more than willing

453

:

to say no or to push back and say,

no, that's really the way I want it.

454

:

I want it to read like that.

455

:

Uh, so we have a, we don't

have a combative relationship.

456

:

We have actually a very friendly

relationship, but we're very.

457

:

Blunt about what the

book should have in it.

458

:

And this is all of this

granular, grammatical stuff.

459

:

She's catching problems.

460

:

Like, , you said a teaspoon of,

or a tablespoon of ketchup was

461

:

15 grams a hundred pages ago, and

now you're saying it's 13 grams in

462

:

this recipe she's keeping track of.

463

:

All of those crazy details in

order to make the book consistent.

464

:

Bruce: Somebody has to, 'cause

the last thing I want is a book

465

:

that's messed up and confusing.

466

:

Yeah, it's, and not consistent.

467

:

It's

468

:

mark: insane.

469

:

Like, uh, like she'll say, you know,

you said a large Cleve of garlic

470

:

minced up was a tablespoon and

this recipe, but, uh, 200 pages

471

:

ago you said it was two teaspoons.

472

:

So which is it?

473

:

And make it consistent

throughout your book.

474

:

And it's that, make it

consistent throughout your book.

475

:

That is not for the thin skin.

476

:

No.

477

:

Bruce: And while the copy editing

is going on, the designer is

478

:

working on the layout of the book.

479

:

The designer is choosing the font, the

colors, the designer is deciding how

480

:

the recipe title goes, how the head note

goes, what the ingredient list looks like.

481

:

Is it in a column, is it straight across?

482

:

And all that's being designed as

the book is being copy edited.

483

:

mark: Right?

484

:

And I think a lot of people

don't know this, but.

485

:

All books are designed, I mean

even novels, history books,

486

:

narrative nonfiction, anything

you read, it's designed.

487

:

Somebody chose the font, somebody chose

what the titles of the chapters look like.

488

:

Mm-hmm.

489

:

Somebody laid out the table of contents.

490

:

All of that is part of the design.

491

:

Somebody decided, oh, I

how big the margins are.

492

:

These were all decisions that are

being made around the copy editing

493

:

of the book and cookbooks are.

494

:

Just, what do I wanna say?

495

:

Heavily designed,

uniquely designed objects.

496

:

They're very

497

:

Bruce: heavily designed.

498

:

If you open a cookbook, there are

so many elements there, right?

499

:

There's every step in the recipe.

500

:

There's the ingredient list, there's

a headnote, there's the title, right?

501

:

There's tips and tricks.

502

:

All of those pieces have to be put

together on a page in a beautiful,

503

:

artistic and pleasing way.

504

:

mark: Right?

505

:

And I see a lot of cook.

506

:

Books out there.

507

:

And we don't let this happen to our books.

508

:

And fortunately we work with really good

designers from the publishing house.

509

:

We don't hire them, but we have good

designers because I see cook books where

510

:

it's basically thrown on the page mm-hmm.

511

:

Where somebody chose a font and

then, you know, recipes end, um,

512

:

I don't know, you know, two inches

down the second page and then there's

513

:

just all this blank page below it.

514

:

There's nothing

515

:

Bruce: worse than blank page.

516

:

No,

517

:

mark: I'm not.

518

:

Totally afraid of white space,

but at the same time, I do wanna

519

:

look like the book is full.

520

:

Mm-hmm.

521

:

And it doesn't just have

big gaps in it anywhere.

522

:

'cause I feel like that's almost a,

I don't know what a cheated project.

523

:

Bruce: Right.

524

:

And that's part of fitting the copy

edited manuscript into the design.

525

:

Yeah.

526

:

Which is the next.

527

:

Step, and it takes about a month for Mark

to go through with the designer and make

528

:

sure that it fits and it looks right,

and that the designer might say to Mark,

529

:

you know, I need you to cut two sentences

out of this to make this all fit.

530

:

Mm-hmm.

531

:

Or Can you write me another two sentences

so this looks better on the page?

532

:

Mm-hmm.

533

:

So that's making good design choices.

534

:

Based on how the recipe is written.

535

:

mark: And let me also say that publishers

cost out books by the number of pages

536

:

in a book, and I, this is gonna be

really esoteric for you, but they cost

537

:

that out in intervals of 16 and 32.

538

:

That's basically the giant sheet of

paper where a book gets printed on it

539

:

printed on both sides and then

it gets cut down and folded

540

:

and turned into the book

that you hold in your hands.

541

:

So it comes in 16 or 32 page

increments and they worry about how

542

:

many, here's the big word signatures.

543

:

That is pa stacks of pages occur

in a book, and once we published

544

:

a book in which the designer,

uh, laid it out and the publisher

545

:

decided it ran one signature.

546

:

Over.

547

:

So I had to sit in a Vancouver, British

Columbia hotel room for three days

548

:

and cut 32 pages out of that book in

order to, for it to fit the signatures.

549

:

But it's not uncommon.

550

:

Bruce: No.

551

:

And it wasn't necess for me to cut stuff

552

:

mark: out of a book.

553

:

Bruce: But it wasn't necessary that

you be in Vancouver to do the book.

554

:

No, we just happened to be waiting for.

555

:

A cruise to Alaska with your parents.

556

:

And so we have to be in Vancouver.

557

:

So cutting signatures out of a book does

not require that you be in Vancouver.

558

:

No,

559

:

mark: but at least I got a really

good dinner each night at the end

560

:

of a hard day working in Vancouver.

561

:

But it was ridiculous having

to do all of this for the book.

562

:

But it's not uncommon for me once

the recipe hits the page and it's

563

:

designed for the designer to say,

um, cut four lines from this recipe.

564

:

Mm-hmm.

565

:

And I've gotta cut them from

the headnote or from a back.

566

:

Part of the recipe somewhere

to make it fit on that page.

567

:

Or the designer will say to me,

this recipe is running short.

568

:

Can you fill this space in some way?

569

:

So I'll have to come up with an

end note, or I'll have to add more

570

:

material to the head note to make it

fill out, to actually fit the page.

571

:

And that process takes

about another month.

572

:

So just think where we are, a few months

into developing the ideas, a couple months

573

:

to selling it, nine months to writing it.

574

:

Three to four months to.

575

:

Editing it two to three months to copy

editing it while it's being designed.

576

:

About a month to fitting the copy

of Edit manuscript into design.

577

:

And then you get this bevy of

final questions and queries.

578

:

This is all before they

hit the word print.

579

:

And believe it or not, this is the point

where a manuscript goes to a proof.

580

:

Reader.

581

:

Mm-hmm.

582

:

And a proof reader proofs the text

583

:

But once your book is edited and

before it goes to copy editing your

584

:

editor, let's go of your book and

it turn is turned over to a managing

585

:

editor who sees it through production,

which is the copy editing, designing.

586

:

All of that stuff is happening

through a managing editor.

587

:

And that last month with the

managing editor and the proofreader,

588

:

I basically can't move from my

desk because they need my answers.

589

:

Uh, that day when they query

something and say, uh, you say

590

:

table salt in every recipe, but in

this one recipe you just say salt.

591

:

Can you fix that?

592

:

Or should that be fixed?

593

:

Basically they give me, you

know, 20 minutes to answer that

594

:

question so that they can get it.

595

:

'cause they're just racing.

596

:

Mm-hmm.

597

:

To hold their finger

over the print button.

598

:

Mm-hmm.

599

:

Bruce: and it's during that point that

we'll start to see cover designs as well.

600

:

And we'll see the front

cover and the back cover.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

They both have to be designed.

603

:

Yeah.

604

:

Um, we will probably earlier on

have been sending out, um, PDFs.

605

:

Of what the book is gonna look like

with content to people, we hope

606

:

will give us quotes for the book.

607

:

And so then at that point, those

quotes will be incorporated

608

:

into the front cover, right?

609

:

Or the back cover of the book.

610

:

And then finally they hit print.

611

:

And guess what?

612

:

It's gonna take up to six months

because usually it's printed.

613

:

In China.

614

:

And it'll be interesting to see what

happens now with tariffs that are in

615

:

place about the printing in China.

616

:

Yeah.

617

:

'cause usually books are

all printed in China.

618

:

Yeah.

619

:

'cause it's so much cheaper.

620

:

Yep.

621

:

I don't know that it'll be cheaper anymore

and perhaps books will start being printed

622

:

here where it's more expensive, but it

may be cheaper than paying the duty on it.

623

:

It may be.

624

:

I

625

:

mark: know that the, some

publishers are looking at.

626

:

Finland where the tariffs are lower

and there are so many paper and pulp

627

:

factories in Finland, but it's still

more expensive than China, no doubt.

628

:

Bruce: Because wherever it's printed,

it has to come on container ship.

629

:

mark: Yeah, and just to say the,

that the container ship is the

630

:

important part of this because

631

:

. Really the print button, pressing

print, and it prints in China.

632

:

I don't, that does not take much time.

633

:

A few days for your book to be

printed and collated and put

634

:

together and bound and put in a box.

635

:

Bruce: Even 10,000 copies.

636

:

It just takes a few days.

637

:

Yeah, it is that container ship problem.

638

:

There's the problem getting it.

639

:

Into the us getting it into the

publisher's warehouse, getting it

640

:

distributed to its distributors, getting

it to the retailers who had asked for it,

641

:

getting it to places like Amazon, and then

in the end, getting it into your hands.

642

:

mark: And the question is always,

643

:

Bruce: how many books to print,

Yeah, the first printing they go

644

:

at is a huge decision and a very,

very fraught one for the publisher.

645

:

Yeah, because they want to

make sure they have enough.

646

:

Books in print to meet the demand.

647

:

Yep.

648

:

The last thing you want is to run

outta books, and it has happened

649

:

to us with the Instant Pop Bible.

650

:

mark: We actually ran out of, the

instant Pop Bible as Bruce says.

651

:

On Black Friday?

652

:

Yeah, the day, like two days before Black

Friday sales, they ran out of this book

653

:

that they expected to sell thousands and

thousands of copies of through Christmas.

654

:

And our book, which was designated

to go through the Christmas sales

655

:

season, was not available until what?

656

:

Christmas Eve or something.

657

:

Yeah, it was,

658

:

Bruce: it was nightmarish.

659

:

I believe they printed them in the US

to get them in really quickly and yes,

660

:

you, they were shipped, I think on the

day after Christmas if you bought them.

661

:

But people were unable to

get them for Christmas day.

662

:

It was a

663

:

mark: stabbing problem.

664

:

Mm-hmm.

665

:

And to be not for sale and being told it's

back ordered on Black Friday was terrible.

666

:

So this is.

667

:

All of that fraught process

of getting a book out.

668

:

And if you listen to everything we've

said, you should realize that what

669

:

we've been talking about is about

a two and a half year span from

670

:

developing the idea all the way from

to the book, appearing on Amazon for

671

:

sale, or being in a store somewhere.

672

:

We're talking in normal production about.

673

:

Two and a half years.

674

:

And there's a true

problem with that, right?

675

:

It's trying to guess when you sell a book.

676

:

Yeah.

677

:

What will sell two and

a half years from now.

678

:

Bruce: It is hard.

679

:

Which is why you want ideas that are

not necessarily stuck onto trends

680

:

you want ideas that have a long

life that can, that will be.

681

:

Exciting to people now, but exciting to

people in two years and hopefully exciting

682

:

to people in 10 and 15 years as well.

683

:

Yeah,

684

:

mark: and this is what they're

finding with the big influencers.

685

:

They're finding that the books sell

really big when they first come out,

686

:

and then they just fall off a cliff

because everybody who wants the book

687

:

buys it and then nothing else happens.

688

:

And if even they crash an influencer's

book, it's still gonna take 'em

689

:

nine months to a year to get it out.

690

:

And is the influencer still

gonna be an influencer in.

691

:

A year, and this is also part of the

problem and I should just say is that

692

:

if the books don't sell and that initial

print run doesn't sell out, your editor

693

:

and or publisher may very well be fired.

694

:

Bruce: And the odds of you

getting another book are nil.

695

:

mark: Yes, it's, it's an

extraordinarily fraught process.

696

:

I should just tell you before

we end this, I should just tell

697

:

you for that, for example, when.

698

:

Lange came out with his books

and they were such huge hits.

699

:

There were a billion OT Lange copycats.

700

:

Mm-hmm.

701

:

That came out.

702

:

There were people trying to be like

Otto Lange, and they were crashing

703

:

those books out so fast that now

if you even mention OT Lange in

704

:

publishing, they all back away from you

705

:

because it's not that his books aren't

still great, it's that all the copycats

706

:

didn't sell as well as his book, but

they were crashing them out to try to

707

:

catch a trend, and they really can't.

708

:

It's never a good idea.

709

:

Publishing moves at a geological pace,

a glacial pace, and it's very hard

710

:

for them to be up on current trends.

711

:

Okay, well, there's the whole

story, the two and a half years of

712

:

how you develop an idea and get a.

713

:

Cookbook published.

714

:

It's a long process to say the least.

715

:

It's been a long process for cold canning

to finally end up this summer in stores.

716

:

We've been working at it for a long

time and are very excited about it,

717

:

so we just wanted to let you in on

what that full process looks like.

718

:

Before we move to the last part

of this podcast, let me say

719

:

that there is a Facebook group

cooking with Bruce and Mark.

720

:

You can find us there there's also an.

721

:

Instagram channel.

722

:

And we're delighted to

interact with you there.

723

:

Okay.

724

:

Speaking of that, let's move on to

the last segment of the podcast.

725

:

What's making us happy in food this week?

726

:

Bruce: Cinderella Fish Store on

the Upper West side of Manhattan.

727

:

Now they also have other stores in

the Hamptons and everywhere else,

728

:

but they were the only people.

729

:

The only people, not even the

kosher market that I often go to

730

:

in West Hartford, Connecticut,

but they were the only people

731

:

that were able to get me a whole.

732

:

Pike at Passover so I could

grind it up and make afil fish.

733

:

mark: Yes, Bruce made his own gefilte

fish as is common around here.

734

:

And uh, I won't eat gefilte

fish in any other form.

735

:

I will not eat it in

jarred form no matter what.

736

:

You doctor, that goopy crap whip, what

737

:

Bruce: is that thing people think?

738

:

You take it out and you reboil

it and suddenly it's better.

739

:

mark: Sweet fish cello.

740

:

Mm.

741

:

Gross.

742

:

No, Bruce makes his own Gefilte fish.

743

:

He's even made his own homemade jalapenos

sauerkraut to go with that gefilte fish.

744

:

Mm-hmm.

745

:

A recipe from cold canning did it.

746

:

It was delicious.

747

:

Um, so he thinks all of that is

exactly part of what's making Bruce

748

:

happy in the food this weekend.

749

:

What it's.

750

:

Making me happy is, uh, we have,

again, I'm gonna bow back some I've

751

:

already said, which is all about eggs.

752

:

And we have a friend who lives

very close to us, who has a ton

753

:

of ducks and a couple geese.

754

:

And I have to say, goose

eggs make me very happy.

755

:

Mm.

756

:

If you would've had a goose egg.

757

:

Well, you haven't had a meal

because a goose egg is giant

758

:

Bruce: size of a salad plate.

759

:

You fry it up and it overlapped

the edges of our salad plates.

760

:

It

761

:

mark: did.

762

:

It filled the plate.

763

:

There was no room for

my toast on the plate.

764

:

And because they're so big, you have

to fry them for a long time to get

765

:

the yolks to set, which means the

bottom of the whites get a little

766

:

crunchy because they're so long.

767

:

I don't like my egg flipped over.

768

:

So there you go.

769

:

So you have to fry a long time to get

that yolk to set and it's so delicious

770

:

and there is so much yolk in a goose egg.

771

:

Oh my

772

:

Bruce: god, so much yolk.

773

:

So bitch, so much yoke

774

:

mark: in a goose egg.

775

:

There's just a ton of yolk for dip toast

in which makes it absolutely perfect.

776

:

Okay, that's the podcast for this week.

777

:

That's what's making us

happy and food this week.

778

:

That's how cookbooks happen.

779

:

And that's our one minute

cooking tip about ginger.

780

:

Bruce: And please Mark told

you about our Facebook group.

781

:

But what I really hope you will do is

go to TikTok and check out our channel

782

:

cooking with Bruce and Mark on TikTok,

where we make videos of cooking all sorts

783

:

of fun stuff and about what it is like to

write cookbooks and go to our Instagram

784

:

group cooking with Bruce and Mark.

785

:

You can follow us there and you could

see everything that's happening, what we

786

:

eat and what we are doing, and see more

about us on cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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About the Podcast

Cooking with Bruce and Mark
Fantastic recipes, culinary science, a little judgment, hysterical banter, love and laughs--you know, life.
Join us, Bruce Weinstein and Mark Scarbrough, for weekly episodes all about food, cooking, recipes, and maybe a little marital strife on air. After writing thirty-six cookbooks, we've got countless opinions and ideas on ingredients, recipes, the nature of the cookbook-writing business, and much more. If you've got a passion for food, we also hope to up your game once and a while and to make you laugh most of the time. Come along for the ride! There's plenty of room!

About your host

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Mark Scarbrough

Former lit professor, current cookbook writer, creator of two podcasts, writer of thirty-five (and counting) cookbooks, author of one memoir (coming soon!), married to a chef (my cookbook co-writer, Bruce Weinstein), and with him, the owner of two collies, all in a very rural spot in New England. My life's full and I'm up for more challenges!