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Episode 54

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Published on:

30th Sep 2024

WELCOME TO OUR KITCHEN: We're talking about the great pizza debate!

Pizza. Seems easy enough. Except it's not. So many choices . . . which lead to so many debates. Thick v. thin. Tomato sauce v. pesto. Meat or not. Parm cheese or not.

We've even written a pizza book: PIZZA: GRILL IT, BAKE IT, LOVE IT! It's a collection of recipes in which everyone is made for both the grill and the oven. If you want to see that book, you can check it out here.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, authors of thirty-six cookbooks, plus two knitting books (from Bruce), plus a memoir (from Mark), and yet more cookbooks in the works. We're delighted to share our passion about food and cooking with you. Thanks for joining us.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[01:03] Our one-minute cooking tip: Ignore the TikTok trend of washing ground beef.

[04:22] The great pizza debate: crust, toppings, origins, the whole thing!

[18:32] What’s making us happy in food this week: sake and fresh-caught tuna.

Transcript
Bruce:

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein and this is the podcast cooking with Bruce

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Mark: and Mark and I'm Mark Scarbrough

and together with Bruce My husband we

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have written three dozen cookbooks.

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Let's always tell you this.

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We are currently in editorial

over the 37th cookbook.

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I can't wait to tell you about it.

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Just you wait.

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Oh my god Gosh, we're going to talk

about jam and jelly and chili crisp

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and chili oil and barbecue sauce and

mustard and chutney homemade triple

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sec and All just all kinds of things.

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I cannot wait or as my mother would say

all kind of things So we're going to

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talk about all kind of things here on the

podcast But uh, that's up ahead in the

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future when we talk about that book for

the moment We're going to talk about a

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one minute cooking tip that has to do with

our pushback against the tick tock friend.

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We're going to have

the great pizza debate.

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Well, we're not really going

to debate it because we're on

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the same side of that debate.

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So there is no debate, but okay,

we'll talk about the great pizza

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debate and we'll tell you what's

making us happy in food this week.

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So let's get started.

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Bruce: Our one minute cooking tips.

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Ignore the TikTok trend

of washing ground beef.

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Oh, it's so gross.

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Seriously, one person doing it

in a colander, washed his ground

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beef, got 5 million views.

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Mark: I, I, I, you know, you may

know this if you watch TikTok.

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Surreals or tic tac, but there is a

woman who does a feed in which she

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reacts to disgusting cooking videos.

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And she always starts by saying,

everybody's so creative and it's supposed

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to be incredibly sarcastic because she's

going to gross out at what they make.

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So anyway, she's always on them

about they did, Oh, just stick the

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chicken in the pan without washing it.

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And I always think to myself.

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Yeah.

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Don't wash the chicken.

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She's

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Bruce: probably one of those people

that like washes it with soap.

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No, no, no.

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Mark: She reacts to somebody who

washes chicken with soap at one point.

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But, um, the reason, okay, the USDA

says do not wash meat in your sink.

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And here's why, because if you

wash ground beef, gross, or

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Bruce: how do you even wash ground beef?

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I don't understand it.

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Mark: or, uh, chuck roast, or chicken

thighs, or turkey cutlets, or whatever

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it is, the chances are you are

going to have tiny, even microscopic

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splatters of water around your

sink, and some of these may contain

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bacteria that can become problematic

as they sit at room temperature.

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So, you do not want to wash this.

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Bugs are not good.

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Cured by water.

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They are cured by heat.

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They are.

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Bruce: So,

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Mark: they get taken care of by heat.

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Bruce: The only reason you wash your hands

like after going to the bathroom to get

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rid of bugs is because you're using soap.

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And the soap helps get rid of bacteria.

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Do not put soap on your ground beef.

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Do not put soap on your steaks.

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Do not put soap on your chicken.

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Wait, is

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Mark: somebody putting soap on stuff?

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Bruce: Yes, people do.

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Go back to TikTok.

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People are washing their hands.

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They're food with soap.

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Okay,

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Mark: they're idiots.

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That's clickbait.

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They're doing that in order to get clicks.

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To get outrage.

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It was

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Bruce: many years ago, but I think

I once saw my sister in law do it.

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Fruit.

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She'd wash fruit with soap.

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Oh, gosh.

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Um.

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And fruit that she's even

gonna peel like a banana.

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Mark: Oh.

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Ha ha ha.

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Okay, well, whatever.

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Um, so anyway, just in terms of meat,

just remember, uh, the bad things

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are killed by heat, not by water.

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So, just don't worry about it.

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Now, if you open a package or something

and it smells off, throw it out.

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Throw, and go back to the

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Bruce: store and complain.

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Remember, throw it out.

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Get your money back.

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Mark: Throw it out, period.

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Get your money back.

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There's no, no hamburger in the

world is worth, I don't know

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what, 48 hours in the bathroom.

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So listen, throw it out, but otherwise

cook it and that will kill the bad things.

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Before we get to the next segment

of this podcast, uh, I want to

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say that we do have a newsletter.

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It comes out twice a month.

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I don't know about that.

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Then, uh, it's got recipes that

are sometimes disconnected, often

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disconnected from this podcast.

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They're in fact, recipes for our TikTok

channel, cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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Oh, it's got other things about our

lives, about our colleague, about our

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life in New England, that kind of thing.

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If you'd like to get that newsletter,

you can get it in your mailbox that

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going to our website cooking with Bruce

and mark.com or Bruce and mark.com.

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You can sign up there.

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I do not.

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See or capture your email, nor do I

let the provider capture your email.

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So no worries.

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And you can unsubscribe at any time.

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All right.

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Up next, the great pizza.

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It's not really a debate because

we're not going to debate it,

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but okay, the great pizza debate.

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Bruce: First, some history.

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Pizza is believed to have

been born in Naples, Italy.

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I'm gonna stop.

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AFC, we're already debating.

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Mark: Yeah, okay, now we're gonna

debate, because that is a highly

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contentious claim, that pizza was

somehow, uh, originated in Naples, Italy.

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There are lots of people who claim that

pizza Pizza is a North American invention.

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So just so you know, that's

automatically controversial.

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Bruce: I don't know.

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Have you been to Naples recently?

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I have.

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They have signs everywhere.

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Have you

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Mark: been to New York and seen the sushi?

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What does that have to do with anything?

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Have you been to Japan and

seen the cheeseburgers?

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What

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Bruce: does that

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Mark: have to do with anything?

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Bruce: But pizza, even in the US,

is referred to as Neapolitan style.

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It's like the New York style of pizza.

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So you're

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Mark: going to, you.

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who worked in advertising for

20 years are going to believe

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monikers and labels on things.

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They're

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Bruce: very good at convincing me.

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Do, do go on.

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Okay, so, okay, let's go into the

assumption that pizza did come from Italy.

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Mark: Okay, fine.

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Bruce: Neapolitan pizza is actually very

close in style to New York style pizza,

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and that is a thin crust with thick edges,

and you toss up the pizza, and you get

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a thin in the middle, but you have a

nice thick edge, but here's the thing.

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Pizza was not very popular

until it reached America through

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Italian immigrants in the 1940s.

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Mark: And this is where

the big debate comes in.

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And this is, this is

true of many food things.

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It's a question of where

do things come from?

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And is it that Italian immigrants came

here, saw something that was being made

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and made it better, or Is it because

it was reminiscent of tomato and pasta

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sauce, or did they bring it with them?

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And it's hard to pin this down.

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In the last show, if you listen

to it, we could pin the slow

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cooker right onto Irving Naxon

and say, it came from a bakery in

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Lithuania and this is what happened.

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It was

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Bruce: the Naxon Beanery.

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Yeah.

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Mark: And so we can pin

that one right down.

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But If you do a deep dive into many

really established food traditions, you

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know, that they're very hard to find.

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Where do these things

start and who started them?

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Because of course, people

traverse boundaries, oceans, they

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immigrate, they move, they bring

their food culture with them.

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Right.

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Sushi, as practiced in the United

States, bears no resemblance.

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to sushi as practiced in Japan, except

that now in Japan, there are North

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American style sushi restaurants.

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So there you go.

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It's a global

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Bruce: world.

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Well, growing up, there was VI Pizza

in Bayside, which was, of course,

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we all thought the best pizza in

the world, although it was so greasy

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that I would have to blot the top

of the slices to get the grease off.

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But they had both this New York

style, thin with a thick edge.

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And they also have what

they called Sicilian.

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So.

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Is that really true that in Sicily,

they like thicker crust pizza?

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I

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Mark: believe that that's true

in the North American landscape,

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and I believe that the North

American culinary traditions have

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influenced things back in Italy.

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That immigrants came here, started

things, went back to Italy, or sent

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recipes back to Italy, or people here as

tourists went to Italy and went to Sicily

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and said, Where's the Sicilian pizza?

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And so a demand was born.

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These things are very hard to pin down.

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Now.

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I know many Italians will hold very

hard to this and it's probably right.

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Bruce is probably right.

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That pizza is.

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It's ultimately somewhere

an Italian conceived thing.

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He's probably right about that,

but it's just highly debated

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in the food historian world.

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Bruce: Okay, well, I want to start

with what belongs on a pizza, okay?

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Of course, cheese, right?

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And of course, yeah, I know.

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And of course.

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tomato, but then there were white pizzas.

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But let's, let's start with

the basic margarita pizza.

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You got cheese, you got tomatoes.

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What else?

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We both believe keep it light because

you don't want to put enough on there

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to cover the taste of that dough.

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Pizza's all about that delicious dough.

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If you

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Mark: go to a decent place, if

you go to a run of the mill, pizza

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chain, the dough is not so great.

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But if you go to a local place making

pizza, shout out in our world to Roberto's

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pizza in Sheffield, Massachusetts,

and to Marzano's pizza in Torrington,

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Connecticut, if they're making their

own dough as those places are, then you

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really do want that yeast raised dough.

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You

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Bruce: want that yeast raised dough.

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They even make a thick

one at this at Marzano's.

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That they ferment it so it

has a sourdough quality.

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They call it a grandmother pie.

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They, see, they're not calling it

Sicilian, they're calling it a nonna pie.

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Right.

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So it's kind of crazy.

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So Mark and I are in agreement

that you keep the toppings light.

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So it means either none or few,

so you could taste the dough.

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Mark: I have to say, because you

probably know this, that I don't come

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from the East Coast, and I did, I

moved to New York and I'm from Texas.

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And until I moved to New

York, I did not know that you

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could buy pizza by the slice.

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I had no concept that that was the truth.

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Now I understand there are plenty

of pizza joints across the U.

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S.

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where you can buy them by the slice.

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But when I moved to New York,

I didn't know this was a thing.

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I moved

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Bruce: to New York in the mid 90s.

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In fact, when you said I had a

slice for lunch, it meant pizza.

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You say, what do you want for dinner?

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I want a slice.

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It means you want pizza, because almost

every pizza place you would go into

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would sell you a whole pizza, sure.

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But they had seven or eight pizzas out,

and they'd give you a slice of one.

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And

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Mark: I'll tell you another thing that

I didn't know until I moved to New

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York, and that is, of course, that New

Yorkers fold the slice in the middle.

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They fold it from the tip of

the corner back to the crust,

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and this way they eat it clean.

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Kind of like a sandwich.

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And I grew up in a world in which A,

you had to let it cool and B, you had

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to hold the slice way up over your

head so that the end of it, when it

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dripped down, you can actually bite it.

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Yes.

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Folded.

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Yeah, I didn't know that

until I moved to New York.

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We had some

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Bruce: this summer, we had some friends

visiting from Spain with their kid,

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and he was saying that The best part of

a pizza is that first bite at the tip

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of a slice and that's all he wanted.

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Mark: I'm not sure.

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I don't agree.

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And

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Bruce: he said he would rather

eat the first, the tip around each

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slice and then leave everybody

else the rest of the pizza.

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And I said, so I said, well,

why don't we just cut the

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circle out of the middle first?

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And he said, no, no.

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The point is eating the tip

and you have to eat eight tips.

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Mark: And you probably know

that there is a grand finale.

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fork and knife debate about pizza.

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Of course, Americans eat pizza with

their hands, eat everything with our

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hands, sometimes our feet with our feet.

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Exactly.

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Um, but, you know, other places

they do eat, they fork and knife.

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Oh, the UK

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Bruce: fork and knife.

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Mark: Uh, there's a lot of Italians

who will insist on fork and knifing it.

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So, uh, yes, it's a fork and knife thing.

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There are a lot of

French who will Exactly.

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Cyst on fork and knifing it.

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They're the same

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Bruce: people

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Mark: that

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Bruce: fork a

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Mark: knife, a hamburger.

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Yes, exactly.

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That's exactly right.

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Um, in the US eating things with your

hands is not considered de classe, but

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it is considered de classe other places.

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And so there is this

fork and knife debate.

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Bruce: Yeah.

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Okay.

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I don't believe it.

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I'm a hands guy.

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Mark: Uh,

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Bruce: hands on.

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Mark: Yeah.

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Do as those who are doing

around you, do as they say.

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Uh, anyway, as you know, of course,

there are different kinds of pizzas,

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thick and thin, and I think this is

what Bruce meant as we were talking

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about it, about the great pizza debate,

but I don't really have a debate.

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Bruce and I both like thin crust pizzas.

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Bruce: We like thin crust, but what's

happened is, Over the last two decades,

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that New York style thin pizza with

the thick crust has evolved, and

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artisanal pizza places have come up,

and they have started Like Howie's

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Mark: in Silicon

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Bruce: Valley.

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In Palo Alto.

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Mm, that's really good.

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And what they do is make a

thin crust pizza that's thin

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all the way to the edges.

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Yes.

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So it doesn't have the thick.

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It's like Howie's.

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It's like Howie's.

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And so it's even thinner.

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And so basically now I'm referring

to it as a thin pizza and a cracker

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crust pizza because they get it so

thin that it's almost cracker crust.

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Which is what

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Mark: I prefer.

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I want my pizza crust to be

essentially matzo with yeast.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I want it really thin.

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And I ask for my pizza, I don't know

if you know this, but I'm going to

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tell you, I ask for my pizza well

done, which means I want it burned.

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And when they say, Oh,

you want it well done?

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I always say, Oh, yeah.

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burn it.

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I want to see charred black and

bits at the edges of my pizza.

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That's how I want to see

it because I want it super

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Bruce: done.

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It's easy to do that

also on a cracker cross.

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And here's where Mark and I don't agree.

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And it is a bit of a debate.

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I prefer it the old New York style thin

in the middle and thick on the edges.

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And he likes it thin all

the way to the edges.

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Yeah, that's a little too

thin for me, partly because

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you can't put anything on it.

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Any toppings on that because

the crust can barely even hold

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Mark: it.

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I seem to do okay with my ricotta.

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So my favorite pizza, the one that I

order everywhere, is with ricotta, sautéed

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onions, sautéed spinach, and jalapenos.

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And

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Bruce: you have tomato sauce.

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Mark: And you have tomato sauce.

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And

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Bruce: mozzarella.

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Mark: Yeah, and then I put add

ricotta, add sautéed spinach,

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sautéed onions, and jalapenos.

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That's my go to pizza.

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Bruce: I'm not a mozzarella fan,

so I actually love pizza only with

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some Parmigiano Reggiano and then

lots of sausage and pepperoni.

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To me, that and when Yes, you want

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Mark: the whole meat experience.

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And when it comes

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Bruce: out, I dump an entire bottle

of chili flakes on it, because I want

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Mark: Yes, he doesn't actually do

that, but I will tell you that in

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any pizza restaurant, Bruce unscrews

the top of the red pepper flakes.

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You can't shake them

out, that's ridiculous.

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And he goes into it and pours

them everything the top of.

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Okay.

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So, you know, there's all this kind of

stuff about gas ovens and wood fire ovens.

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I'm going to tell you that there are

many places that run coal fire ovens.

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In fact, Bruce and I were in Chicago

once for, oh God, an overeating season.

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civeritic five days in which we just

went from restaurant to restaurant.

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And when we landed at O'Hare, we made a

beeline to a coal driven pizza restaurant.

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And even

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Bruce: though it was in

Chicago, it was not deep dish.

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No, it was not.

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It was not thick, because I could tell

you that even though we don't necessarily

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agree on thin to the edges or not,

neither of us are big fans of that deep

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dish or the Sicilian or the nonna pies.

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It's too

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Mark: much bread.

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The thing I love about coal

fired oven pizza is that.

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You can really get the blackened bits.

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I mean, you can totally

get blackened bits on

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Bruce: it.

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Mark: I

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Bruce: mean,

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Mark: I just love

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Bruce: that more than

I could possibly say.

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And wood fire pizza gives you a little

bit of smoke, and it's really nice.

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I mean, most New York

pizzerias, it's gas ovens.

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But, hey, I grew up on that,

and that's perfectly fine.

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At home, I do it two ways.

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Sometimes I take out the kettle grill,

and I put wood fire, and I put a stone

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on there, and we get real flames.

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Sometimes I do it on the gas

grill, but then I Pile up my pizza

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Mark: stone and another big debate

here about pizza is of course beer

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versus wine There's no debate.

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If you know anything, you know

that Italians are horrified.

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Many Italians are horrified at wine

with pizza It's a it's a horrifying.

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It's a beer Italians.

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Bruce: It's a beer and

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Mark: right exactly It's beer fair

and now I'm gonna say that I don't

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take part in this debate of beer

versus wine because now I'm gonna tell

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you just how absolutely gross I am.

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I prefer Diet Coke.

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And that's what I have with my pizza.

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Do not at me or write in, I have Diet

Coke with pizza and that's what I like.

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Bruce: Fine, it's better

than orange juice.

404

:

I can't imagine orange juice and pizza.

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Even milk is better than orange juice.

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:

No, citrus juice with

407

:

Mark: pizza.

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:

You know, great combinations,

like orange juice and toothpaste.

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:

Um, yeah, no, I am

definitely the Diet Coke guy.

410

:

I can't help it, it's just too much.

411

:

I like Diet Coke.

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:

You can take the boy out of Dallas, but

you cannot take the Dallas out of the boy.

413

:

Dallas is

414

:

Bruce: Diet Dr.

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:

Pepper.

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Mark: No, in my world it was Diet Coke.

417

:

Dr.

418

:

Pepper in my world was rural Texas

and rural Oklahoma when I was a kid.

419

:

That's what my grandparents

drank who lived in the boonies.

420

:

Not Mr.

421

:

Pibbs?

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:

No, Mr.

423

:

Pibb comes along much

later than when I'm born.

424

:

No, absolutely not.

425

:

Bruce: Not Moxie?

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:

Mark: I don't even, I don't

know what you're saying.

427

:

I keep saying things, and I don't know

why you're saying them to me, actually.

428

:

Um, no, it was Diet Coke.

429

:

Do you not believe me?

430

:

Do you want to go back and check?

431

:

It was Diet Coke, and that's how I

still like my pizza, is Diet Coke.

432

:

And here's another thing that

you should know, and I'm going

433

:

to step into this debate.

434

:

Here's another debate.

435

:

I despise cold pizza.

436

:

I despise

437

:

Bruce: it.

438

:

You also despise cold Chinese food.

439

:

I despise it.

440

:

They have the perfect breakfast.

441

:

Both of them love cold pizza.

442

:

In fact, my favorite beer is

made locally here in Connecticut

443

:

called Cold Pizza Pilsner.

444

:

Mark: God, I wouldn't even

order it for the name.

445

:

Much less whether I thought

that beer was good or not.

446

:

I'm not a fan of leftover

Chinese food or leftover pizza.

447

:

I don't like it.

448

:

It's gross.

449

:

You can have whatever you want.

450

:

Eat all your congealed

meats and congealed things.

451

:

I just don't like it.

452

:

But

453

:

Bruce: here's a tip.

454

:

Cold pizza reheats so beautifully

in three minutes in the air fryer.

455

:

Yeah, now

456

:

Mark: there I'll eat it.

457

:

Now I'll eat the leftover

458

:

Bruce: pizza.

459

:

the slice in the air fryer, turn the

air fryer on, and within three minutes,

460

:

it's sizzling and hot and crunchy.

461

:

Mark: Yeah, that's a great way to

eat leftover pizza, in my opinion,

462

:

although I know I'm the vast minority.

463

:

Most people just like it

straight out of the fridge.

464

:

Before we get to the final segment

of this podcast, what's making us

465

:

happy in food this week, let me

say, it would be great if you could

466

:

subscribe to this podcast and rate it.

467

:

If you subscribe to it, you

won't miss a single episode.

468

:

And as you know, we are unsupported.

469

:

We do not have sponsors.

470

:

And so the way that you can help us

along, we prefer not to have sponsors

471

:

is to just write a review, like

Great podcast, or you made me laugh.

472

:

Anything like that would be

terrific in the analytics.

473

:

Thanks for doing that.

474

:

Okay.

475

:

As is traditional, our final segment,

what's making us happy in food this week?

476

:

Bruce: Sake.

477

:

Normally I don't like sake.

478

:

I mean, it's not that I don't like it.

479

:

It just never does anything for me.

480

:

It's not complex.

481

:

It's usually too

482

:

Mark: sweet.

483

:

A thousand Japanese people are right now.

484

:

A thousand, a million, 10

million, a hundred million

485

:

are about to come after you.

486

:

I wish we had that many followers.

487

:

Followers in Japan.

488

:

Bruce: So we were invited to friends

the other day and they were going to

489

:

serve some fish and I said, Oh, I'm

going to bring sake rather than the

490

:

typical champagne we would bring.

491

:

And we went to don't you want to

492

:

Mark: invite us over to get

a bottle of champagne and

493

:

Bruce: we went to total wine and

I'm looking at the sake and I ended

494

:

up picking a bottle of sake that

costs twice what a normal bottle

495

:

of champagne was going to cost us.

496

:

Oh yeah.

497

:

This was

498

:

Mark: way up in experience.

499

:

Stratosphere levels of expense.

500

:

But I also

501

:

Bruce: know that good sake can be

expensive, and we got it, we opened it,

502

:

and even the people at this party who

said, No, I don't like sake, I'm not

503

:

gonna have it, tasted it, and we finished

that bottle in about five minutes.

504

:

Yeah, we did.

505

:

So sake is making me happy.

506

:

It tasted like

507

:

Mark: rice.

508

:

It had a slightly woody taste to it,

it had incredible complexity in the

509

:

sweetness, it was really fine sake.

510

:

You did a great job picking

out that bottle of sake.

511

:

Um, what was making me happy in Food

This Week is where that sake was served.

512

:

At that dinner, Bruce said

they served some fish.

513

:

Well, not just a fish.

514

:

fish.

515

:

Their friends had been out on a

boat, oh, a hundred miles out in

516

:

the Atlantic Ocean from the eastern

seaboard, and they caught a giant

517

:

bluefin and a giant bigeye tuna, both.

518

:

And so our friends got the

belly of the bluefin, right?

519

:

And then they got a loin

section from the bigeye.

520

:

We ate it all.

521

:

So we started with the bluefin

as sushi and our friends, uh,

522

:

said sliced it for sashimi and

our friends had sliced it thin.

523

:

It was raw and they served it either.

524

:

You could have it with seaweed salad and,

uh, uh, tamari or soy sauce, or they also

525

:

made a really nice citrus vinaigrette.

526

:

You could pour over it

either one that you wanted.

527

:

And then we had.

528

:

giant plates of tuna steaks off the grill.

529

:

Just, I mean, really, it was ridiculous

how much tuna was on my plate.

530

:

This steak, it was huge

and it was spectacular.

531

:

Bruce: That made me happy too.

532

:

Yeah.

533

:

Mark: I mean, it was a

spectacular meal and so generous

534

:

that they shared it with us.

535

:

Okay.

536

:

That's the podcast for this week.

537

:

Thanks for being on the journey with us.

538

:

Thanks for letting us tell you what's

making us happy and for this week,

539

:

for giving you one minute cooking tips

and for debating things like this.

540

:

pizza, which ended up being a little

bit of a debate, I guess, about beer and

541

:

wine and cold pizza and all that stuff.

542

:

Okay, so it did.

543

:

Thanks for being a part of this journey

and we appreciate your time with us.

544

:

Bruce: Do you like your

pizza cold and leftover?

545

:

Do you like it thin?

546

:

Do you like it thick?

547

:

What toppings do you like?

548

:

Go to our Facebook group, Cooking

with Bruce and Mark, and tell us

549

:

all about how you like your pizza.

550

:

We want to know what is going on

in your head and in your kitchen,

551

:

here on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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About the Podcast

Cooking with Bruce and Mark
Fantastic recipes, culinary science, a little judgment, hysterical banter, love and laughs--you know, life.
Join us, Bruce Weinstein and Mark Scarbrough, for weekly episodes all about food, cooking, recipes, and maybe a little marital strife on air. After writing thirty-six cookbooks, we've got countless opinions and ideas on ingredients, recipes, the nature of the cookbook-writing business, and much more. If you've got a passion for food, we also hope to up your game once and a while and to make you laugh most of the time. Come along for the ride! There's plenty of room!

About your host

Profile picture for Mark Scarbrough

Mark Scarbrough

Former lit professor, current cookbook writer, creator of two podcasts, writer of thirty-five (and counting) cookbooks, author of one memoir (coming soon!), married to a chef (my cookbook co-writer, Bruce Weinstein), and with him, the owner of two collies, all in a very rural spot in New England. My life's full and I'm up for more challenges!