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Episode 55

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Published on:

7th Oct 2024

WELCOME TO OUR KITCHEN: It's the mustard-ketchup showdown!

Mustard or ketchup? Which camp are you in? Or are you some sort of envoy between the camps?

We're talking about mustard and ketchup, a culinary showdown in many North American homes.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough, authors of three-dozen cookbooks (and counting). We've developed over ten thousand original recipes in our career. And we've been contributing editors for old-school publications like EATING WELL and COOKING LIGHT.

Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[00:46] Our one-minute cooking tip: Make ketchup more interesting by spicing it with five-spice powder, prepared horseradish, tamari sauce, or another savory condiment.

[02:20] Our mustard-ketchup showdown! We're talking about our personal histories with these condiments as well as their cultural history. Which camp are you in?

[19:29] What’s making us happy in food this week: lemon-pear oat cookies and kasha varnishkes.

Transcript
Bruce:

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein, and this is the podcast

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cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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Mark: And I'm Mark Scarborough, Bruce,

we have written 40 books, 36 cookbooks,

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knitting books, I wrote a memoir.

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We're all over the place, and we're

just getting started because we are

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in the process of editing a book.

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Editorial for our 37th book,

which is actually related to

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what this podcast is about.

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Although we're not going to

really talk about it instead.

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We've got a one minute cooking tip.

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Then we're going to talk about ketchup and

mustard as a kind of culinary showdown.

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It is in many houses and

it kind of is in ours.

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And we'll tell you what's making

us happy in food this week.

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So let's get started.

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Bruce: Make your ketchup more interesting.

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by flavoring it up.

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You could add a pinch of five

spice powder, some curry powder,

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a dash or two of hot sauce or a

teaspoon or two of horseradish.

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It's all it takes.

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Maybe even a little bottle of

teriyaki sauce, a little soy sauce.

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Make your ketchup more interesting.

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So you're talking about writing.

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Mark: Wait, wait, wait.

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Um, so the writer's gonna

want to know the process.

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So you're talking about putting some

ketchup in a little bowl and then it.

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Adding a little curry powder,

five spice powder, don't put it

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Bruce: in the jar because then you're

horseradish, then you're flavoring

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the whole bottle and it's better

just to do a little bit as you need.

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Mark: Well, let's see.

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The writer wants accuracy in process.

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I did, but I wanted to make sure

everyone understood what you

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meant doing for a long time.

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Everybody does.

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Yes.

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The writer wants accuracy and process.

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Okay, so that's about making ketchup

better, and we're gonna now talk

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about, in fact, ketchup and mustard.

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It's a longer story than you might

be able to imagine, and it is

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in fact a debate in many houses.

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We'll talk about that.

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But before we do, let me just say,

it would be great if you could rate

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and even write a small review of this

podcast on whatever platform you find

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us on, whether that be on Audible or.

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on Apple podcast.

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I know you can't write a review on

Spotify, but wherever you are, if you

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could just even say nice podcast, that

helps us with the algorithms and the law,

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that kind of mess that we worry about.

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And it's a good way for you to support

our otherwise unsupported podcast.

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I'll say it.

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Bruce: Nice podcast.

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Mark: Yeah, there you go.

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Nice podcast.

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So next, the great showdown

between ketchup and mustard.

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Bruce: When we have hot dogs in our house.

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One of us, not me, always

reaches for the mystery.

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Okay, so I'm

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Mark: going to stop right here.

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I always have to stop you.

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You too.

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I never get a word in.

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I know.

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I'm sorry.

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But I think this is really kind of funny

because I think that a lot of people, if

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they knew about us, they know that, you

know, I'm from a Christian background,

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and you're from a Jewish background.

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And I think they would.

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assume that the Christian

reaches for the ketchup and the

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Jew reaches for the mustard.

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But in fact, it's the

opposite at our house.

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Bruce: My parents always put mustard on

hot dogs, but I reach for the ketchup.

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Mark reaches for the mustard,

as does 71 percent of Americans,

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according to a Harris poll.

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You mean

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Mark: 71 percent of Americans

reach for mustard with hot dogs?

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They do.

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Okay, I have to tell you that I cannot.

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Tolerate Ketchup on hot dogs.

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It grosses me out.

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Bruce: Oh, I was watching

it interview the other day

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Mark: get it

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Bruce: Somebody was interviewing

Barack Obama from years ago when he was

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still living in Illinois and running

for you know And someone said, would

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you ever allow ketchup on a hot dog?

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And he's like, no way.

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That should be, he even

said that should be illegal.

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Oh, there you go.

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Illegal.

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Mark: Well, there's

government overreach for you.

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Uh, I just, it's hot

dogs are kind of sweet.

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And the buns are always super

sweet, and then there's ketchup.

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Bruce: But they're salty, and it's the

sweet of the ketchup with the salt.

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Look, I even like to put ketchup

on a corned beef sandwich.

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Yeah, you even

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Mark: put

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Bruce: ketchup on eggs.

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Oh, ketchup is so good on eggs.

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Well, I will tell you that The

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

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Wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

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Mark: wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

Who, who, who, who is hired for the

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National Hot Dog and Sausage Council?

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What is that interview like?

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Bruce: It's

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Mark: What, what, and let me

go a little further with that

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since I want to try to do this.

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What is their third Thursday at 2 p.

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m.

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like if you work for the National

Hot Dog and Sausage Council?

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Bruce: I don't know, but there is a

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

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Mark: It's, that's not, it's

like, it's, it's, it's, it's

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apartment 3G in New York City.

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That's not a real thing.

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Okay.

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Bruce: And today, this council has

publicly stated their disapproval

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of adults using ketchup on hot dogs.

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Oh, wait a minute.

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Now, I want to interview.

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Yeah, I want to interview with the

National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

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Look, I, look, my parents did put

mustard on hot dogs, but Pretty

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much, I grew up in a ketchup family.

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Look, there was always

ketchup on the table.

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It's

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Mark: so funny that the

Weinsteins are a ketchup family.

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Bruce: When my, when my dad would

grill steaks, the ketchup would come

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out because I liked ketchup on it.

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When hamburgers came out,

the ketchup came out.

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And when I stayed at my

grandparent's, alright, my mother's

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father, Joe, he Loved ketchup.

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He put it, he dipped

green beans in ketchup.

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No!

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He put ketchup, he's the one who

taught me about ketchup and eggs.

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And my grandma Rose, I've said this

before in this podcast, her big culinary

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delight she would make for me are

noodles with cream cheese and ketchup.

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Oh man.

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And it would melt into like So goes the

mythology of the great Jewish cooks.

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Oh no, she wasn't a very good cook.

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But she made that lakshmi with cream

cheese and it was like a creamy tomato

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sauce because she added ketchup.

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Mark: Oh!

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Just Okay, so in my house.

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If you started to put ketchup on

a hot dog, I'm serious about this,

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my mother would stop us if, let's

say, my brother or I were beginning

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to put ketchup on a hot dog.

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Well, a hamburger, we wouldn't,

but okay, let's pretend we

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were putting it on a hamburger.

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She would stop us and she would

always have the same sentence.

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She would say, I raised

you better than that,

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Bruce: but you'd still

be allowed to use it.

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Mark: Wouldn't

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Bruce: you?

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Mark: I raised you better than that.

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Okay.

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We put mustard on everything.

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Everything.

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But

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Bruce: didn't your family

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Mark: ever have fast food, hamburgers?

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No?

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No.

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No, I didn't grow up on fast food.

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Oh.

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We didn't ever.

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I don't Okay, so, here's the truth.

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I don't think I've ever

been to a Burger King.

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I know I've been to a Wendy's.

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And I know I've been to a McDonald's.

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Bruce: What about a Wetsons?

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Mark: I don't even know what that is.

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Yeah, that was

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Bruce: a New York

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Mark: thing.

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You made me go to a stupid White

Castle once, and I almost didn't

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make it home to the bathroom.

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So, um, I don't know anything

really about fast food.

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We didn't, okay, no, that's not true.

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Okay, when I was a little, little kid,

I have very vague memories of being like

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four years old and sitting in the back

of the car and we would go to A& W Root

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Beer back in the day when they would

still roll it out on roller skates.

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That's how old I am.

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And they would bring out the trays

on roller skates to your car.

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Oh, the drive in, that was real.

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I still remember that.

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But I also remember going to the drive

in movie and my mother being appalled

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when we went to go get hamburgers

and all they had was ketchup for the

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hamburgers and my mother was Absolutely.

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Bruce: Well, she wouldn't eat hers.

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Ketchup is the best.

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I didn't like mustard.

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I wouldn't eat mustard as a kid.

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There was a list of things I wouldn't eat.

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But now I like mustard.

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But here's the thing, hot dogs

aside, and all of that, ketchup

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is the king of condiments.

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Mark: I just want to say, I just find

it so funny that my mother thought I

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was of condiments as a class issue,

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Bruce: that

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Mark: ketchup was lower class

and we didn't put it on.

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So that we were not upper class.

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We were solidly middle class people.

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Would she group

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Bruce: people who used ketchup as

the same people who drank sweet tea?

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Yes.

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Mark: I am from the South.

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And when I was coming up in the

South, my mother said that sweet

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tea was what poor Georgians drank.

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It was always Georgia was

our example of poor people.

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And it was what poor people in

Georgia drank was sweet tea.

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It was not.

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My mother put lemon period in

iced tea and I still do, right?

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I still do to this day.

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I only put lemon in iced tea.

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I mean,

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Bruce: we look, we're a

bunch of New York Jews.

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Iced tea came out of a packet.

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Oh, nasty, instant, pre sweetened,

artificial lemon flavor.

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And my grandmother made

it, my mother made it.

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My mother

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Mark: would ask in

restaurants, is it brewed?

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When she would order iced tea,

she would say, is it brewed?

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Like, it was like, okay, we're way off.

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But we're talking about

class and condiments.

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Well.

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So let's talk about ketchup

since it is a global

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Bruce: thing.

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It is the king of condiments.

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In the U.

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S.

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alone last year, six billion with a B.

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Billion dollars in sales.

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That's a lot of ketchup.

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It's everywhere.

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It's everywhere.

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I mean, we probably have a few

little packets in our junk drawer

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upstairs in the kitchen if I were

to go look for them right now.

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I mean, most people do, right?

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It's

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Mark: like And people have really

Big, uh, likes and dislikes about

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ketchup, like my sister in law, right?

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She has a thing, right?

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What ketchup does she like?

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She will

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Bruce: only eat Heinz.

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Right.

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And if we go into a restaurant

See, it doesn't even register

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Mark: with me because

I'm not a ketchup person.

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She

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Bruce: will only eat I wonder, because

I know that sometimes they go to

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McDonald's, and you know McDonald's broke

off their deal with Heinz years ago.

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No, I don't know.

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Because the company that owned Heinz

had a whole deal with Burger King.

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They don't go

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Mark: to, they don't go to McDonald's.

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No, they go to, they

like to go to Freddy's.

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Okay.

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That's a compelling theory.

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Fred is, is,

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Bruce: you know, McDonald's

makes their own ketchup.

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Now they have like an

industrial ketchup table.

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They stopped using Heinz because the

Burger King and it's all rivalry.

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But ketchup is everywhere

except in Canada.

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Mark: Well, no, come on.

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And in Belgium and in France and you're,

but yes, it ketchup is a global food at

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this point, but many people consider it.

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It's kind of a badge of honor

outside of the borders of the

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United States that we are not U.

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S.

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based.

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And so they want another condiment.

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And in France, in Belgium,

in Canada, it's mayonnaise.

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Bruce: Okay, but the, the, the national

food in Canada are French fries.

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And you have to ask for the ketchup.

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I was appalled.

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They just give me mayonnaise.

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Thinking, I want mayonnaise.

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Mayonnaise is gross.

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And the last thing I want

to do is put fries in it.

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Mm mm-Hmm.

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So they brought me, I'm

gonna, I, when I asked,

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Mark: I ate mayonnaise.

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I'm gonna quote Flannery O'Connor, when,

when you're in a foreign country, do as

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you done in Georgia . So I ate whatever.

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They gave me you, we're going

to be Flattery O'Connor, and do

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what you've done in Georgia and

put your ketchup on everything.

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But we should say that ketchup is

truly a global food, and if you

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don't know this, ketchup in fact is

a word itself that comes from ancient

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Chinese culture, and this is one of

the reasons why you have that problem

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of how to spell it, ketchup with a K.

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It's because you're trying to

transliterate Chinese characters.

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No, I thought it was

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Bruce: that Hunts made cats up

Well, they did, but it's all a

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Mark: transliteration,

ultimately, going back kitsy

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Bruce: ep kind of condiment.

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And it goes as far back as

the 17th century, and it was

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made of mushrooms and fish.

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fish and oysters and

fermented things and nuts.

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And I don't think, I don't think

my sister in law would like it.

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Mark: No, no, I didn't.

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And if you don't know about, uh,

ketchup manis, it's kind of weird

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pronunciation to it, ketchup manis, but

ketchup manis, and I'm still butchering

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it, but it's an Indonesian Holland.

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Condiment, an Indonesian Dutch

condiment, all those wacky

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Bruce: Dutch I

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Mark: know, and it's a way that the

Dutch during Colonialization took over

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an Indonesian condiment and kind of

morphed it more toward a Dutch sauce.

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But now Kechum niece is just absolutely

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Bruce: associated with Indonesian cuisine.

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However, when you look at every bottle

of it, and most people are still

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gonna call it ketchup Manis, right?

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When you look at every bottle of it,

they're almost all made in Holland.

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Yeah.

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And it's basically a thick,

sweetened soy sauce kind of mixture.

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But it's hard

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Mark: to even have an Indonesian

recipe without it in it.

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But yeah, it's this weird,

uh, cross cultural thing

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that happened in colonialism.

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And if you don't know about

it, it actually is a really

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amazing condiment on its own.

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It has, it has a lot of really

big big, salty flavors to it.

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Bruce: For me, it's a key ingredient when

I do like lo mein and stir fried noodles.

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I love it in that you can use it

instead of oyster sauce if you're

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opposed to eating oyster sauce because

it does have oyster extractives in it.

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You can use that ketchup manis

and that would be perfectly fine.

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But the tomato ketchup that we're used to.

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didn't really show up

until the 20th century.

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Right.

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It is a very modern invention.

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Mm hmm.

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By Henry Hines.

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Right.

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And the name behind it.

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He wanted to use tomatoes, which are

rich in pectin and do get thick, and

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he wanted to cook that down and use

vinegar and sugar as a preservative.

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You

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Mark: know, I wonder, and this is

completely just speculation on my part.

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I haven't done a lick of research,

so here I am on a podcast saying it.

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Bruce: The research is left to Bruce.

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Mark: As is typical of podcasts,

I'm just gonna say whatever I think.

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whether it's true or not.

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Anyway, um, I wonder if the original

Heinz ketchup was more truly

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sweet sour because now to me, it's

vaguely sour and almost all sweet.

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I disagree.

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Bruce: I,

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Mark: for me, it's

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Bruce: vinegary.

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Mark: What?

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Vinegar as in there may be an open

bottle of vinegar near it when it's made.

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We disagree.

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I disagree on that.

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No, it's not vinegar.

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It's no more vinegary or acidic than

a tomato, but that's what I think.

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Anyway, I wonder if it has gotten

more sugary as time goes on.

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It's certainly gotten

added corn syrup now.

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Yes, now it has corn syrup.

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Which wouldn't have probably been

part of the original formulation.

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No, but you

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Bruce: shouldn't go to stores that

sell ketchup without corn syrup.

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You know, they're all trying

to copy Heinz, though, right?

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That is basically the base

that everyone's going after.

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I have

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Mark: to say that the Millennials

and Gen Zs, as if I can talk about

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this as a whole thing, I hate when

people talk in terms of generations.

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Bruce: Categorically.

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Mark: I know, I hate this

categorical thinking, but younger

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entrepreneurs who are starting

food businesses are starting a lot.

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of ketchup businesses, and

they are variously flavored

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ketchups, not the standard.

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And they're trying to make them more,

uh, homecrafty, more homemade tasting.

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Uh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a wrestle.

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Um, in the book that we're currently

working on in editorial, I just

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want to tell you that there is

a recipe for standard quote,

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unquote, standard ketchup in there.

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And We struggled with that recipe.

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We went back and forth and

back and forth over it.

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Because I kept saying, but it

doesn't taste like, and then we said,

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well, does it need to taste like?

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I think in

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Bruce: the end, it does taste

like, because we have a bunch

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of ketchup recipes in the book.

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And there is one that we tried to make

taste like, that one that comes right

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out of the bottle that Henry came up

with back in the early 20th century.

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I know, but I still think it's

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Mark: not exactly right.

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But it was, it secret blend of spices.

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I know, it was a really

problematic issue in the book.

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Well, we should just say, while we're

talking about the roots of ketchup, we

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should just say the roots of mustard

are much, much, much longer and bigger.

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We know that there were some types of

mustards running around in England.

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In Egypt, maybe 3000 BCE.

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Bruce: Yeah, see the pharaohs were putting

mustard on their hot dogs, not ketchup.

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Mark: And on their dead servants,

but that's a whole other matter.

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Um, so, uh, you know, we know that

there are all kinds of pastes,

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and most of the mustards were

made, as paste with great must.

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That's often a residue of a fermentation

process and mustard seeds and spices.

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We have recipes for those kind

of pace that date back to the

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early first century common era.

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Maybe

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Bruce: that's what the pyramids

were coded in mustard and

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they were just mustard colors.

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Yes, that must

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Mark: be it.

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And that's why they don't

look smooth anymore.

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That's surely the answer.

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Uh, we should just say

that once again, the St.

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Louis.

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World's Fair is the origination

point for what most people think of

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as mustard, at least in the United

States, because that's where Robert

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French introduced his mild mustard.

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And if you know anything

about that mustard, it's mild.

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Of course, it spurts way too much out of

the bottle, but it's not the deli mustard.

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It's not strong.

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I grew up on German mustard, which

because a German immigrant family.

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So I grew up on this

really no spanking mustard.

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The yellow stuff that French's make.

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That's still not for me.

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It still wouldn't count for my mother

as mustard either, so there you go.

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Bruce: That 1904 World's

Fair was kind of crazy.

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There were so many food

things that started and became

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national trends at that fair.

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The ice cream cone became a thing there.

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:

Peanut butter became a

national thing there.

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Even iced tea was served there,

which had never really been a thing.

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Mark: It's what it was,

was an introduction to the

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:

mechanization of these things.

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I mean, like, peanut butter had been

around before that fair, but it introduced

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it on a mechanized industrial scale, and

it made it up to, as they say, an economy.

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economy of scale and

became national products.

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We should just say, in case you

don't know, mustard is healthier

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for you than sugary ketchup.

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Mustard has about five calories per

serving, whereas ketchup has about 20.

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So it is a lower, mustard

is lower in calories.

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Bruce: And mustard's also way more

versatile, despite the fact that I

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will reach for ketchup every time.

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I am not going to put ketchup in my

salad dressing, I'm not going to add

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it to a stew, but I will add mustard.

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And it's a key ingredient where

ketchup just wouldn't work,

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:

Grandma Rose, notwithstanding.

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Yes, that's true.

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Mustard probably would have

been better on those noodles.

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Mark: And when I was in grad school,

when I was getting my PhD in Madison,

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Wisconsin Madison, I should tell

you that I went to several times the

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National Mustard Museum in Wisconsin.

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It was amazing.

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At the time it was in a

town outside of Madison.

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:

I understand it's now moved to

Middleton, which is a suburb of Madison.

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:

It's really just kind of part

of Madison at this point.

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:

But the National Mustard Museum there

in Middleton, Wisconsin currently has

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what, over 5, 000 mustards on display.

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I remember when it was this little

storefront in this little rural town, and

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I don't think they had 5, 000, but they

did have a lot of mustards on display.

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Bruce: But I will say this.

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Final final parting word on ketchup.

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It makes great fake blood on Halloween.

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Oh

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Mark: That's about the

best you can say for it.

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I completely agree with this

sentence before Get to the

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final segment of our podcast.

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Let me say that we do have a

newsletter In fact, the newsletter

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:

that is attached to this podcast

is gonna have some of our favorite

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:

favorite ketchups and mustards in it.

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:

You can order them and

check them out yourself.

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:

If you want to sign up for

that newsletter, you can find

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:

a way to do that online at our

website, cooking for some art.

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:

com there.

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:

You can leave your name and

email and I don't capture it.

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:

And the program doesn't capture it.

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:

And the mail provider can't capture it.

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:

So you can unsubscribe at any time, but

a newsletter connected to this podcast,

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:

we'll have some of our favorite ketchups.

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:

and mustards in it that you could sample

on your own and how to order them.

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:

All right.

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As is traditional, the final segment,

what's making us happy in food this

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week, and I'm going to go first

and that is lemon pear bar cookies.

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I tried one of these.

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:

Um, I'm currently

teaching a lot right now.

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:

I am leading a once a month poetry

discussion in which we discuss a

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:

collection of poetry once a month.

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:

I lead that.

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three book groups, three

book discussion groups.

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And at two different locations,

I'm giving eight week seminars

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on the novels of Eudora Welty.

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And in all of his teaching, I

always bring treats for break.

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I mean, listen, you really

don't want to listen to me

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for two hours without a break.

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:

So I bring a treats for break and

Bruce often makes them for me.

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And he made these lemon pear bar

cookies, carved down in five seconds.

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Lemon

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Bruce: pear marmalade that went in the

middle of these bar cookies was homemade.

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Mark: Yeah.

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Well, that

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Bruce: does help.

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What made them lemon pear.

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Yeah, that

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Mark: does help that you've got

homemade marmalade in there.

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Bruce: What's making me

happy are kasha varnishkas.

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Mark: Oh.

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And if

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Bruce: you Back to your Grandma Rose.

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:

No, Grandma Rose, no, she did actually.

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So if you don't know what that is,

it is bowtie pasta that is tossed in

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a skillet with caramelized onions.

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:

Wait, what

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:

Mark: have the onions been caramelized in?

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:

Bruce: Oh, in duck fat or chicken fat.

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:

There you go.

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You toss in cooked, toasted

buckwheat, also known as kasha.

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So you got kasha varnishkes.

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:

We were at a friend's for dinner.

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It was Mark's and my 28th

anniversary of being together.

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It was.

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And a friend made us a beer.

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:

big beautiful dinner and he served,

among other things, Kasha Varnishkas

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and that made me very happy.

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It,

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Mark: it, it's a delicious thing and

um, I, I can't help it even though I

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was raised in a mustard Christian world.

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I love Kasha Varnishkas, so there you go.

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There's the podcast for this week.

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Thanks for joining us.

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:

And making time in your

schedule for our podcast.

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:

We appreciate your being on this journey

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Bruce: with us.

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And every week we tell you

what's making us happy in food.

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So please go to our Facebook group

Cooking with Bruce and Mark and tell

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:

us what's making you happy in food

this week because we want to know.

524

:

And if it's really fun and delicious

sounding, we might even make it and try

525

:

it here on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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About the Podcast

Cooking with Bruce and Mark
Fantastic recipes, culinary science, a little judgment, hysterical banter, love and laughs--you know, life.
Join us, Bruce Weinstein and Mark Scarbrough, for weekly episodes all about food, cooking, recipes, and maybe a little marital strife on air. After writing thirty-six cookbooks, we've got countless opinions and ideas on ingredients, recipes, the nature of the cookbook-writing business, and much more. If you've got a passion for food, we also hope to up your game once and a while and to make you laugh most of the time. Come along for the ride! There's plenty of room!

About your host

Profile picture for Mark Scarbrough

Mark Scarbrough

Former lit professor, current cookbook writer, creator of two podcasts, writer of thirty-five (and counting) cookbooks, author of one memoir (coming soon!), married to a chef (my cookbook co-writer, Bruce Weinstein), and with him, the owner of two collies, all in a very rural spot in New England. My life's full and I'm up for more challenges!