Oyster Farming, Our One-Minute Cooking Tip, An Interview With Cheuk Kwan, Casamara Club Sodas, Coconut Custard Pie & More!

Bruce: 00:00:01

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein and this is the Podcast

Bruce: 00:00:03

Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

Mark: 00:00:04

And I'm Mark Scarborough.

Mark: 00:00:05

And together with Bruce, we have written three dozen\ cookbooks,

Mark: 00:00:10

including in the for our Bible.

Mark: 00:00:12

Ma, did you know that Bruce on his own has written two knitting books, boyfriends.

Mark: 00:00:18

Sweaters and nits men want, and I have written a memoir, bookmark

Mark: 00:00:25

all about my life in books.

Mark: 00:00:29

All told, we are approaching our 40th title, which is unbelievable, and we're

Mark: 00:00:34

gonna tell you more about the 40th title soon enough on this podcast.

Mark: 00:00:37

But this podcast is not about any of that.

Mark: 00:00:39

Instead we're gonna talk about oyster farming.

Mark: 00:00:41

Oh my gosh, what?

Mark: 00:00:43

We are so out there oyster farming.

Mark: 00:00:45

We're gonna give you as.

Mark: 00:00:46

Typical our one minute cooking tip.

Mark: 00:00:48

Bruce has an interview with Chuck Kwan, the author of, have You Eaten Yet?

Mark: 00:00:52

And we're gonna talk about what's making us happy in food this week.

Mark: 00:00:56

So let's get started.

Bruce: 00:01:01

You know that oysters.

Bruce: 00:01:03

Clean water.

Bruce: 00:01:04

Right as they grow, they filter.

Bruce: 00:01:06

So they are the only form of farming that actually leaves the surrounding

Bruce: 00:01:10

area cleaner than when they started, which is really kind of nice.

Bruce: 00:01:14

Right?

Bruce: 00:01:15

So when you farm oysters, you're not only providing really,

Bruce: 00:01:18

really good food for people.

Bruce: 00:01:19

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:01:19

Cause oysters are delicious, but you are cleaning the environment.

Bruce: 00:01:23

So it seems like this should be a.

Bruce: 00:01:25

win win.

Bruce: 00:01:26

It

Mark: 00:01:26

seems.

Mark: 00:01:27

Yeah, but here's the problem.

Mark: 00:01:29

We have unfortunately, toxified our oceans such that oysters now pick up

Mark: 00:01:35

great deals of poisonous chemicals and even rare earth elements.

Mark: 00:01:41

And this is the problem.

Mark: 00:01:43

The seabed is becoming increasingly.

Mark: 00:01:47

Polluted oysters as filter systems.

Mark: 00:01:51

Pick all that up.

Mark: 00:01:52

And the question is whether you should eat oysters.

Mark: 00:01:55

Well, the answer is gonna be yes because of the advent of oyster farming.

Bruce: 00:02:01

We're gonna talk about how oysters are farmed and what the

Bruce: 00:02:02

different styles of oyster farming mean for the area where they're farmed.

Bruce: 00:02:07

But let's start with the basics.

Bruce: 00:02:08

You grow plants from seeds, right?

Bruce: 00:02:10

How do you grow oysters?

Bruce: 00:02:12

Well, Oysters have reproductive organs and interestingly, sure enough,

Bruce: 00:02:16

, they produce both sperm and eggs.

Mark: 00:02:18

I think that's kind of life, right?

Mark: 00:02:19

I like not plant life, but animal life has reproductive organs.

Bruce: 00:02:23

Yeah, but not every animal can make sperm and eggs, so no,

Bruce: 00:02:26

they can actually fertilize their.

Bruce: 00:02:28

Own eggs.

Mark: 00:02:29

Oh, well, all right then . So that is, I suppose that is a, an achievement

Mark: 00:02:35

in life . The, but you know, what happens is farmers actually stimulate that

Mark: 00:02:39

spawning and that fertilization process by manipulating the temperature and

Mark: 00:02:43

the food of farmed to oysters, and they can actually control the spawning and

Mark: 00:02:48

thus get more than the standard cycles without necessarily the introduction of.

Mark: 00:02:56

Chemical.

Mark: 00:02:56

Yep.

Mark: 00:02:56

Reproductive agents.

Bruce: 00:02:57

And so you end up with giant tanks with millions of free swimming

Bruce: 00:03:02

larva, which after a few weeks, they cement themselves to a platform that

Bruce: 00:03:07

the farms create from ground up shells.

Bruce: 00:03:09

Yep.

Bruce: 00:03:10

And then these platforms get placed in the ocean to grow.

Bruce: 00:03:13

Now, how they're placed in the ocean and where they're placed in

Bruce: 00:03:17

the ocean become very important in terms of the health of the oysters.

Bruce: 00:03:21

And the happiness of the people that live near these farms.

Mark: 00:03:24

Yeah, it's true.

Mark: 00:03:25

Now we have friends who have a second home, a vacation home in, on the Cape

Mark: 00:03:31

in Massachusetts, and they're on the Bayside, not the ocean side of the Cape,

Mark: 00:03:35

if you know what that means to the Cape.

Mark: 00:03:37

But they're on the Bayside.

Mark: 00:03:38

and they actually live not so far from a big oyster farm.

Mark: 00:03:44

And their rocks at their beach are covered with, as we call them, escapees, , because

Mark: 00:03:51

these things, you know, of course get loose from where they've attached onto

Mark: 00:03:55

the farming poles that are made from the ground up shells, and otherwise

Mark: 00:03:59

they get loose, they scattered down in the currents and their beach is just.

Mark: 00:04:04

Loaded with oysters and they're, they're all farming escapees is what it is.

Mark: 00:04:09

They are, is what they are.

Bruce: 00:04:10

Basically, when our friends go out and harvest the oysters from

Bruce: 00:04:13

their beach at low tide, they're just, , you know, part of the bottom

Bruce: 00:04:17

culture, which is, yeah, it is.

Bruce: 00:04:19

Bottom culture uses a natural sea floor as a base for oyster

Bruce: 00:04:23

farms, and it often produces oysters with much stronger shells.

Bruce: 00:04:28

But these oysters are exposed to the elements or exposed to predators, and

Bruce: 00:04:33

yeah, often not all of them survive.

Mark: 00:04:35

And there's a whole thing about bottom culture, oysters.

Mark: 00:04:39

About whether in fact you're avoiding the problems of the toxicity.

Mark: 00:04:44

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:04:44

of the ocean floor.

Mark: 00:04:46

Now, some of these bottom culture of farms, as I understand it, stand up a

Mark: 00:04:50

little bit off the muck of the floor.

Mark: 00:04:52

They're mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:04:53

, they're, they're flat, they're horizontal.

Mark: 00:04:54

Yep.

Mark: 00:04:55

But they are up ail from the muck, but they're still a question

Mark: 00:04:57

of what's settling down there.

Mark: 00:04:59

It.

Mark: 00:05:00

We are not gonna solve that on this podcast.

Mark: 00:05:02

I can tell you that there are people who complain about this and there

Mark: 00:05:05

are other people, and not just bottom culture, oyster farmers, but actually

Mark: 00:05:10

scientists who say, no, no, no, no.

Mark: 00:05:12

They're, they're, if they're raised up out of the muck,

Mark: 00:05:15

you're, you're much better off.

Mark: 00:05:16

So it's a, it's an ongoing question.

Bruce: 00:05:19

Well, the other alternative, Off bottom culture.

Bruce: 00:05:22

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:05:22

Where oysters are grown in a controlled environment like a bag or a net or a

Bruce: 00:05:28

cage that floats in the open water.

Bruce: 00:05:31

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:05:31

And this is, you know, cage culturing rack and bag tray culture trade, Turing.

Bruce: 00:05:35

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:05:36

And each method has its own advantages and disadvantages, but the main thing is

Bruce: 00:05:40

that the oyster up off the bottom, the water flows around them, over above them.

Bruce: 00:05:46

And that makes.

Bruce: 00:05:48

, both cleaner water and healthier oysters.

Mark: 00:05:50

A lot of, a lot of people claim that off bottom culture farmed oysters.

Mark: 00:05:54

And I will tell you that I haven't done enough testing on this, so I

Mark: 00:05:56

wouldn't, I wouldn't actually know.

Mark: 00:05:58

A lot of people will say that they're sweeter.

Mark: 00:06:00

Mm, because the water is more active around them.

Mark: 00:06:03

The tide is coming in and out and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Mark: 00:06:05

And they're milder flavored than bottom culture farmed oysters.

Mark: 00:06:10

But I don't know that to be the truth.

Bruce: 00:06:12

But whether you choose oysters that were bottom cultured or floating

Bruce: 00:06:17

in their cages and their nets, you have to know that when oysters

Bruce: 00:06:22

are farmed, the waters around the farms are highly regulated, right?

Bruce: 00:06:25

So oysters, each oyster can filter 50 gallons of water a day.

Bruce: 00:06:29

It's a huge amount of water, but the water that they're in is highly regulated to

Bruce: 00:06:34

make sure that water is clean, because they will absorb pollutants, which is.

Bruce: 00:06:39

You know, every time our friends pick up those oysters off the beach and off of

Bruce: 00:06:43

their rocks, I do worry about it a little bit because no one is monitoring their

Bruce: 00:06:47

water even though it's 10 miles down, no, down the beach from the Oyster Forest.

Mark: 00:06:51

And I can tell you, we go to a place in Portland, Maine called the

Mark: 00:06:54

Shop, and it's fabulous for its oysters.

Mark: 00:06:57

I know everyone goes to even Tide when they go to Portland, Maine,

Mark: 00:06:59

but I can tell you stay away from even Tide and go to the shop.

Mark: 00:07:02

It is so much fine.

Mark: 00:07:04

And it's less expensive and they have Prosecco on tap , so go go to the shop.

Mark: 00:07:10

It's up on Monjoy Hill.

Mark: 00:07:12

But one of the things that I've noticed is that at the shop they sell not only

Mark: 00:07:15

O Ocean oysters, but they sell main River oysters and river oysters in Maine

Mark: 00:07:21

sometimes are in an environment where when the tide is low, the river is.

Mark: 00:07:26

Out.

Mark: 00:07:26

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:07:27

. And so they're in freshwater.

Mark: 00:07:28

And then when the tide comes back in, I dunno if you know this, but in Maine,

Mark: 00:07:31

many of the rivers reverse direction as the tide comes in and suddenly

Mark: 00:07:35

the oysters are back in saltwater.

Mark: 00:07:36

So it's what is

Bruce: 00:07:37

like salmon.

Bruce: 00:07:37

They've spent some of their life in freshwater.

Bruce: 00:07:39

Something like in seawater.

Mark: 00:07:41

I can tell you that those oysters that are the river oysters mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:07:44

, yeah.

Mark: 00:07:45

At the shop are strong.

Mark: 00:07:47

They are strongly flavored.

Bruce: 00:07:49

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:07:50

I'm not fond of the super big flavored oysters, but a lot of people are not happy

Bruce: 00:07:55

with the oyster farms, even if they're off, especially if they're off bottom.

Bruce: 00:08:00

And who are these people?

Bruce: 00:08:01

These are the people with the views of the water from their expensive beach houses

Mark: 00:08:05

NIMBY not in my backyard.

Bruce: 00:08:07

Not in my backyard.

Bruce: 00:08:08

And these people are in.

Bruce: 00:08:10

The Hamptons, these people are in the expensive parts of Rhode Island, and

Bruce: 00:08:15

they don't wanna look out on their water and see the floats that indicate where

Bruce: 00:08:19

the farms are, where the oysters are.

Bruce: 00:08:21

And that's, so they're suing oyster farms.

Bruce: 00:08:24

And the thing is, these people want to eat oysters.

Bruce: 00:08:26

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:08:26

They just don't wanna look out on the water and see the farms.

Bruce: 00:08:29

I will say,

Mark: 00:08:29

Bruce knows this about me.

Mark: 00:08:31

Just absolutely love oysters and I love them in almost all forms.

Mark: 00:08:36

I love oyster chowder.

Mark: 00:08:37

I love fried oysters, and more than anything I love raw oysters.

Mark: 00:08:42

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:08:43

But, you know, my, my dad, my now passed away, father introduced me

Mark: 00:08:48

to oysters on the half shell, as we called them back in the day.

Mark: 00:08:51

Oh, when?

Mark: 00:08:53

Oh gosh, early teenager, we got this seafood restaurant in Dallas,

Mark: 00:08:57

s and d and it was just brilliant.

Mark: 00:09:00

The oysters were so good.

Mark: 00:09:02

Dad and I would always each get a dozen.

Mark: 00:09:05

I was like 13 years old, eating a dozen oysters and it was so fabulous.

Mark: 00:09:09

And then my dad quit eating them.

Mark: 00:09:10

He got afraid of them and he got afraid that of various bacterial

Mark: 00:09:15

infections and it's not hepatitis, it's.

Mark: 00:09:18

Unreal to be cautious.

Mark: 00:09:20

No, I still eat a lot of raw oysters, but I am super cautious.

Mark: 00:09:26

I don't really eat them at a place that I don't trust.

Mark: 00:09:30

And by that I mean gas station oysters.

Mark: 00:09:32

No, and I'm not gonna, yeah, I don't, I don't eat them at many bee shacks,

Mark: 00:09:36

to be honest with you, because I don't know what it looks like they're getting

Mark: 00:09:39

them from the water right behind them.

Mark: 00:09:41

But I know that that's not how food distribution networks work.

Mark: 00:09:45

I would rather eat a dozen.

Mark: 00:09:47

Oysters, raw oysters at a restaurant with a really high end chef who is watching

Mark: 00:09:54

his supply or her supply very carefully.

Mark: 00:09:57

Yeah.

Mark: 00:09:58

It's just, I We never, ever eat raw oysters at home.

Bruce: 00:10:03

No, I won't do that.

Bruce: 00:10:04

No, you

Mark: 00:10:05

never go buy them.

Mark: 00:10:06

Even though I love them.

Bruce: 00:10:07

We don't eat them at home.

Bruce: 00:10:08

No.

Bruce: 00:10:08

I let the chefs do it.

Bruce: 00:10:09

I don't want.

Bruce: 00:10:10

to shuck them, I'll get shell of them.

Bruce: 00:10:11

I'm not all that good at it, so you know, and I trust

Bruce: 00:10:14

restaurants with their turnover.

Bruce: 00:10:16

In fact, there's a place on a little shout out to our friend Adam who owns Cafe

Bruce: 00:10:19

Adam in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, and at least as of this recording,

Bruce: 00:10:22

every Thursday night he does two bucks.

Bruce: 00:10:25

Shucks, at each oyster's, only two bucks and you can go and

Bruce: 00:10:28

eat your fill of oysters there.

Mark: 00:10:30

And I always think about my friend Catherine, who lives in

Mark: 00:10:32

Austin and she grew up in Baytown, Texas and Texas and Texan like I am.

Mark: 00:10:37

But she grew up in Baytown and we were out once with Catherine and her

Mark: 00:10:41

husband and we were eating raw oysters.

Mark: 00:10:43

I think we were in Maine, and I remember this, this had to be 20 years ago.

Mark: 00:10:47

And I remember this as bright as daylight that.

Mark: 00:10:51

Sucked down an oyster.

Mark: 00:10:52

She put an oyster in her mouth and instantly picked up her napkin

Mark: 00:10:56

and spit it back into the napkin.

Mark: 00:10:58

Froze.

Mark: 00:10:58

Fuck.

Mark: 00:10:58

And she said, Nope, not worth it.

Mark: 00:11:01

and I, I kind of remember looking at her like with this face, and she's like, Nope.

Mark: 00:11:05

I can tell.

Mark: 00:11:06

She's like, growing up in Baytown, I can tell what's a good

Mark: 00:11:08

oyster and what's a bad oyster.

Mark: 00:11:10

And that one was not worth it.

Mark: 00:11:11

So I must admit that I'm not that finesse about oysters, but I do know.

Mark: 00:11:18

Once they start to get really strong, I, it takes me a moment to figure out that

Mark: 00:11:23

I want to eat that, but I do love, love, love, love oysters in all their forms.

Bruce: 00:11:29

I don't know that I would eat a Baytown oyster.

Bruce: 00:11:31

I don't want oysters to go in warm water.

Bruce: 00:11:33

Warm water oysters are different.

Bruce: 00:11:34

No.

Bruce: 00:11:34

Ew.

Bruce: 00:11:35

That's kind of like, No, that's just wrong.

Mark: 00:11:37

I mean, that's what dad and I were eating at s and d in Dallas is we were

Mark: 00:11:39

eating warm water gulf oysters, and they are strong, they're meaty, they're big.

Mark: 00:11:44

Well, at least they used to be.

Mark: 00:11:46

They were big, they were strong, they were meaty.

Mark: 00:11:48

They were not for the faint heart.

Mark: 00:11:50

My mother would just sit there silently staring at us , not

Mark: 00:11:54

daring to eat one oyster.

Mark: 00:11:55

She claimed that once she put one oyster in her mouth and that was the end of.

Mark: 00:11:59

I think my mom would eat a fried oyster, but I'm not even sure.

Bruce: 00:12:04

Sure.

Bruce: 00:12:04

I don't like a fried, I only like raw oysters.

Bruce: 00:12:06

I don't like them cooked at all.

Mark: 00:12:07

But you should just know that oysters are an

Mark: 00:12:10

incredibly well farmed item.

Mark: 00:12:13

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:12:14

. That doesn't mean that there aren't.

Mark: 00:12:15

Poor producers out there.

Mark: 00:12:17

There are as in everything, but it is one of the crops that can

Mark: 00:12:22

stick around for a while as slowly all the crops are dying out.

Mark: 00:12:26

It is one of the ones that can stick around for a while and

Mark: 00:12:29

eating oysters isn't necessarily the worst carbon footprint that

Mark: 00:12:33

you can put down on the globe.

Mark: 00:12:35

So, you know.

Mark: 00:12:37

Consider oysters and consider farmed oysters.

Mark: 00:12:40

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:12:40

, first and foremost,

Bruce: 00:12:42

keep demand up.

Bruce: 00:12:43

That's all I could say.

Bruce: 00:12:44

Keep demand up cuz they're good for you and they're really good for the planet.

Mark: 00:12:51

Before we get to the next segment of this podcast, let me tell you that

Mark: 00:12:54

as I always do, we have a newsletter.

Mark: 00:12:56

You can find that newsletter by going to our website, Bruce and Mark.

Mark: 00:13:00

Just spell it all out.

Mark: 00:13:01

A n d m a r k Bruce and mark.com.

Mark: 00:13:05

There's a form.

Mark: 00:13:06

For signing up for the newsletter, I want to tell you that I have set it

Mark: 00:13:10

up so that I cannot see your name.

Mark: 00:13:12

I cannot sell your name.

Mark: 00:13:14

I don't even know who you are when you sign up.

Mark: 00:13:15

I just see a statistic that says eight people signed up for the newsletter

Mark: 00:13:19

this week, and that's what I see.

Mark: 00:13:20

So it's really great if you wanna do that, and you can always opt out It.

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Anytime by clicking the link at the bottom of any newsletter

Mark: 00:13:27

and getting off the list.

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They come in every one to two weeks.

Mark: 00:13:32

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Mark: 00:13:37

life, all kinds of weird things that happen inside of that.

Mark: 00:13:41

Newsletter and we'd love it if you could subscribe.

Mark: 00:13:44

So check it out.

Mark: 00:13:46

So up next, as is traditional, our one minute cooking tip

Bruce: 00:13:53

toast your nuts.

Bruce: 00:13:55

Toasted nuts have more flavor than unt toasted nuts.

Bruce: 00:13:58

I Okay.

Bruce: 00:14:00

. They do.

Bruce: 00:14:02

Pistachios, pecans, walnuts, cashew.

Mark: 00:14:04

I'm gonna tell you that I was really good and I passed up a thousand

Mark: 00:14:08

times to comment on bottom culture.

Mark: 00:14:10

So I, I wanna tell you that I got out of that and now you're asking me to get out.

Mark: 00:14:16

Toast your nuts.

Mark: 00:14:16

Toast your nuts.

Mark: 00:14:17

Okay, toast your nuts.

Mark: 00:14:18

I'm just gonna sit here

Bruce: 00:14:18

and put them in salads before you grind them up to put them in cakes.

Bruce: 00:14:21

But here's the thing.

Bruce: 00:14:23

Toast your nuts in the oven.

Bruce: 00:14:24

Don't toast them in a skillet.

Bruce: 00:14:26

They don't brown evenly.

Bruce: 00:14:27

Yeah.

Bruce: 00:14:27

You get burn bits.

Bruce: 00:14:28

You have to shake them, put them in the oven, 350 degrees and a single

Bruce: 00:14:31

layer on a sheet pan and let them go.

Bruce: 00:14:33

Check them at five minutes, check them at seven minutes.

Bruce: 00:14:35

As soon as they're lightly brown and smelling good, you're done.

Mark: 00:14:39

Yeah.

Mark: 00:14:39

I will tell you that.

Mark: 00:14:40

toasting nuts.

Mark: 00:14:41

In an oven is a much better solution.

Mark: 00:14:44

You don't end up with those bitter brown black spots on the nuts.

Mark: 00:14:47

If you watch them starting at about the fourth to fifth minute

Mark: 00:14:50

and then forward, you do have to not step out of the kitchen.

Mark: 00:14:57

Up next Bruce's interview with Chuck Kwan, the author of the

Mark: 00:15:01

brand new book, have you Eaten?

Mark: 00:15:04

Stories from Chinese restaurants.

Bruce: 00:15:06

Today I'm speaking with Chuck Kwan.

Bruce: 00:15:08

He's the author of the new book.

Bruce: 00:15:10

Have you Eaten yet?

Bruce: 00:15:11

Stories from Chinese Restaurants Around the World.

Bruce: 00:15:14

Chuck visited Chinese restaurants on five continents, including stops in Madagascar

Bruce: 00:15:20

and above the Arctic Circle in Norway.

Bruce: 00:15:21

And through stories of the people he met.

Bruce: 00:15:24

His book focuses on how food is at the center of the diasporic Chinese identity.

Bruce: 00:15:30

Welcome, Chuck.

Bruce: 00:15:31

Thank.

Bruce: 00:15:31

Conversations about the Chinese diaspora often lead to discussions about

Bruce: 00:15:36

adaptation, ingenuity, and resilience.

Bruce: 00:15:40

, why did you decide to approach it through the lens of food?

Cheuk: 00:15:44

Well, it's ubiquitous that you will see Chinese restaurants everywhere.

Cheuk: 00:15:49

I, I see them in small towns, north America.

Cheuk: 00:15:52

I see them in massive population.

Cheuk: 00:15:56

And because food has always been associated by the Chinese, people

Cheuk: 00:16:01

as sort of health and wellbeing and.

Cheuk: 00:16:04

Title of my book is Have You Eaten Yet?

Cheuk: 00:16:07

Which is a colloquial kind of greeting.

Cheuk: 00:16:09

People see each other in Chinatowns, and asking about,

Cheuk: 00:16:13

basically asking, how are you?

Cheuk: 00:16:14

Perhaps this is because, in the ancient times, China always have

Cheuk: 00:16:18

that famine and poverty, and war people may not have enough to eat.

Cheuk: 00:16:23

So asking if anybody's stomach is full, it's akin to asking, you know,

Cheuk: 00:16:29

how are you or how are, are you?

Cheuk: 00:16:31

So I thought that, you know, food would be, the, the one very interesting

Cheuk: 00:16:36

angle to approach the story of diaspora.

Cheuk: 00:16:39

There are

Bruce: 00:16:39

Chinese restaurants everywhere, one goes.

Bruce: 00:16:41

And I've heard you say in other interviews that more than any ethnic

Bruce: 00:16:45

group, Chinese immigrants gain a toehold in a new land through their cuisine.

Bruce: 00:16:49

Do you think that comes from the Chinese culture?

Bruce: 00:16:52

or is that coming from the acceptance in the land and the places that

Bruce: 00:16:56

the Chinese people are coming

Cheuk: 00:16:57

to?

Cheuk: 00:16:58

I think both.

Cheuk: 00:16:59

, but certainly I, I believe the Chinese immigrants have

Cheuk: 00:17:02

always, , been more, I would say more adaptive to this environment.

Cheuk: 00:17:07

And that's because of survival and the fact that o only one of

Cheuk: 00:17:11

my 15 Chinese restaurant owners have ev any training as a.

Cheuk: 00:17:17

The rest of the people were perhaps engineers, farmers, you know, coming

Cheuk: 00:17:22

from different background and it just so happens that you can make Chinese food

Cheuk: 00:17:26

easily without speaking the language.

Cheuk: 00:17:29

You can serve your customers, you can have your kids, , be the front of the

Cheuk: 00:17:33

house and, and, but you can hide it in inside the kitchen and, and do your thing,

Cheuk: 00:17:39

, without having to speak the language.

Cheuk: 00:17:40

So it is in a sense, , overcoming the barrier of assimilation and,

Cheuk: 00:17:45

, and being accepted into society.

Cheuk: 00:17:48

And what better, you know, ambassador is food.

Cheuk: 00:17:53

, , in terms of, , you know, getting acceptance, well,

Bruce: 00:17:55

food in China varies greatly from region to region.

Bruce: 00:18:00

But is there a thread that ties it together?

Bruce: 00:18:03

And if so, do you see that common thread?

Bruce: 00:18:07

Throughout the world where Chinese food is being served,

Cheuk: 00:18:09

in a sense.

Cheuk: 00:18:10

Yes.

Cheuk: 00:18:10

, I, but I have to caution you, you know, when you use the word term Chinese

Cheuk: 00:18:15

food, it, it, it basically represents about 56 ethnic minorities groups

Cheuk: 00:18:21

in, in China anywhere from Tibetans to Mongolians to Uyghur Muslim food.

Cheuk: 00:18:28

However, the, the kind of food as we know in North America and.

Cheuk: 00:18:33

probably around the world, are Cantonese food and Cantonese is famous for using

Cheuk: 00:18:39

the walk, using fresh ingredients.

Cheuk: 00:18:43

And with the walk and the ula, you can pretty much create anything you want.

Cheuk: 00:18:47

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:18:47

, and I think that's, that sort of points to the adaptability.

Cheuk: 00:18:51

Of Cantonese food in the early days in, in, in North America.

Cheuk: 00:18:55

Now, how?

Cheuk: 00:18:56

However, of course you know, in, in the late last two or three decades,

Cheuk: 00:19:00

you'll see the introduction of more quote unquote exotic, you know, Citron

Cheuk: 00:19:04

food, Hunan food, Shanghai food.

Cheuk: 00:19:07

But in, in general, they all have that kind of very flexible and like the.

Cheuk: 00:19:11

you know, where everything has to be classical and cuisine and approved

Cheuk: 00:19:15

by Paul pacu or anybody else.

Cheuk: 00:19:17

Chinese food is it's like a mass popular thing where everybody who can, you

Cheuk: 00:19:23

know, get their hands on walk and then cook something for their customers.

Cheuk: 00:19:28

And if the customers like it, hey.

Cheuk: 00:19:29

You know, why not?

Cheuk: 00:19:31

So I think, I think in that, that has the common people denomin kind

Cheuk: 00:19:34

of dimension to, to Chinese food.

Bruce: 00:19:36

Let's continue that idea of authenticity.

Bruce: 00:19:40

Mm-hmm.

Bruce: 00:19:40

, I mean, is there really anything such as authentic Chinese food, even inside

Bruce: 00:19:46

China, more or less outside China?

Bruce: 00:19:49

I

Cheuk: 00:19:49

can ask this question quite a bit.

Cheuk: 00:19:51

And I would say, , you know, authenticity is a loaded word, . Mm.

Cheuk: 00:19:57

I define authenticity as something that you grow up with basically

Cheuk: 00:20:03

that, you know, like the Italian grandmother, spaghetti sauce.

Cheuk: 00:20:07

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:20:08

, you know you would say, wow, you know, that's why I grow up with, and this

Cheuk: 00:20:11

is authentic to where I come from.

Cheuk: 00:20:13

I think you can say that very.

Cheuk: 00:20:17

and people certainly would accept that.

Cheuk: 00:20:19

Yeah.

Cheuk: 00:20:19

But I would not use the word authenticity to describe Chinese food in general.

Cheuk: 00:20:25

You mean?

Cheuk: 00:20:26

One person's authenticity is another person saying impersonation,

Cheuk: 00:20:31

hence using that argument.

Cheuk: 00:20:32

I would say, you know, Chinese American food is authentic to a

Cheuk: 00:20:36

Chinese American who grew up here.

Cheuk: 00:20:38

Chop suey is by itself not a.

Cheuk: 00:20:41

Dish.

Cheuk: 00:20:41

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:20:42

As everybody mix it out to be and egg roasts and, you know,

Cheuk: 00:20:46

sweet and sour chicken balls.

Cheuk: 00:20:48

If I was growing up in a small town America, I, I would say, well, hey,

Cheuk: 00:20:52

that's authentic, because that's the kind of Chinese food that I've been using.

Cheuk: 00:20:56

I'll tell you a story.

Cheuk: 00:20:58

In, in Toronto there's a big haka population.

Cheuk: 00:21:01

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:21:02

haka people came from India, and so they.

Cheuk: 00:21:06

restaurants here serving the kind of food that they make in

Cheuk: 00:21:10

Calcutta which is half a blend of.

Cheuk: 00:21:14

Chinese ingredients with Indian spices.

Cheuk: 00:21:17

Hmm.

Cheuk: 00:21:18

And then the clientele are all Indian and Pakistani taxi drivers.

Cheuk: 00:21:22

And you know, you ask why?

Cheuk: 00:21:24

Well, that's because that's the Chinese food they're used to back in Mumbai.

Cheuk: 00:21:28

Back in Calcutta.

Cheuk: 00:21:29

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:21:29

. So when they come to Toronto, they want their home version of Chinese food.

Cheuk: 00:21:34

Hence, you know, to them that's the authentic Chinese food.

Bruce: 00:21:37

Having eaten all over the world, what's the most interesting.

Bruce: 00:21:42

Where you found Chinese people serving up, and I use the words of

Bruce: 00:21:45

quotes, Chinese food, I would say

Cheuk: 00:21:47

Madagascar.

Cheuk: 00:21:48

I have never been there before.

Cheuk: 00:21:49

I write my book and I didn't even know there were Chinese in Madagascar

Cheuk: 00:21:53

until somebody pointed out, Hey, you might, you might try to go there.

Cheuk: 00:21:56

So I, I landed in Madagascar, not knowing anything, and then I

Cheuk: 00:21:59

was served a boat of one times.

Cheuk: 00:22:02

Basically, my friend says, this is our national dish.

Cheuk: 00:22:05

And basically just I home one time soup, but it's taken over , it's

Cheuk: 00:22:10

taken over the, the cuisine.

Cheuk: 00:22:12

And I equate this with kind of how the Bris will call, you know, chicken

Cheuk: 00:22:16

tea masala as their national food.

Cheuk: 00:22:18

Right.

Cheuk: 00:22:19

, you know, it, it just shows you the truth can travel everywhere.

Cheuk: 00:22:22

So Madagascar to me was Interesting country, not just because I've never

Cheuk: 00:22:25

been there, but I also never thought there were Chinese settlement.

Cheuk: 00:22:29

But in fact, there have been immigrants who were there for five, six generations.

Cheuk: 00:22:35

So, and they're all racially very mixed.

Cheuk: 00:22:38

Into the local population.

Cheuk: 00:22:40

So that's, to me is an eye opening country for me.

Cheuk: 00:22:43

So

Bruce: 00:22:44

in Madagascar, you found wonton soup that has taken over

Bruce: 00:22:48

as a national soup in Canada.

Bruce: 00:22:50

You have Indo-Chinese food that is being imported sort of in its current state.

Bruce: 00:22:57

But is there any place in your travels where you found a true

Bruce: 00:23:01

fusion of the local culture?

Bruce: 00:23:04

And Chinese

Cheuk: 00:23:04

food, I would say in Peru, Peruvians have this cuisine called

Cheuk: 00:23:08

chifa, which by the way is based on Chinese word means to eat rice, and

Cheuk: 00:23:12

it is a very, very unique blend.

Cheuk: 00:23:16

you know, you can't really call it Chinese and you can't really call

Cheuk: 00:23:18

it Peruvian, but then it is the national cuisine of Peru in a sense.

Cheuk: 00:23:23

So there, I would say it's, it's a very, very fusion, but I would

Cheuk: 00:23:29

hesitantly use the word fusion.

Cheuk: 00:23:30

I would use just say hybrid.

Cheuk: 00:23:32

You know, fusion means you, you completely melting one another.

Cheuk: 00:23:36

You can still distinguish.

Cheuk: 00:23:38

Parts of it that is Inca or Spanish, you know, Peruvian.

Cheuk: 00:23:45

But of course many parts of it are Chinese in origin, like

Cheuk: 00:23:50

fried rice and fried noodles.

Cheuk: 00:23:52

Can

Bruce: 00:23:52

you give me an example or two of the dishes that the family you visited was

Bruce: 00:23:57

serving in their restaurant that inhabit this idea of hybrid Peruvian Chinese food?

Cheuk: 00:24:02

There is a dish called chicharon which in norm and different

Cheuk: 00:24:08

Latin American countries use the word chicharone differently in Peru.

Cheuk: 00:24:11

Chicharone, it's almost like a barbecue roast pork that you find

Cheuk: 00:24:14

in Chinatown in North America.

Cheuk: 00:24:17

It's their version the way they cooked it and so forth.

Cheuk: 00:24:21

And it's also pretty much like a national dish, but it, it actually, you know,

Cheuk: 00:24:28

the origin of it is using soy sauce and everything else is basically Chinese.

Cheuk: 00:24:35

So there is an example of, of kind of the you would call it total fusion

Cheuk: 00:24:39

of, of Chinese and Peruvian cuisine.

Cheuk: 00:24:41

Jack, tell me about

Bruce: 00:24:42

your experience with Chinese restaurants in Israel.

Bruce: 00:24:45

It wasn't very easy to find anything that was reminiscent to

Bruce: 00:24:50

you at first of anything you knew.

Bruce: 00:24:52

Was it?

Cheuk: 00:24:53

No, it wasn't bad.

Cheuk: 00:24:54

I mean, it's just not, to me it, I, I was looking.

Cheuk: 00:24:59

Chinese restaurant owners because I want to tell their stories in

Cheuk: 00:25:01

my, in my film and in my book, but everywhere I turn, the, the restaurants

Cheuk: 00:25:07

were run, were run by Israelis.

Cheuk: 00:25:10

Maybe with a Thai cook.

Cheuk: 00:25:11

So you have in your, in your menu, because the cook is from

Cheuk: 00:25:15

Thailand, and then you might have Malaysian you know, servers.

Cheuk: 00:25:20

So I, I couldn't find anything for a long time.

Cheuk: 00:25:23

And then suddenly I ran in hafa, I ran into a, a Chinese restaurant.

Cheuk: 00:25:27

The, the outside sign has, Proper Chinese characters.

Cheuk: 00:25:31

Handwritten Chinese characters.

Cheuk: 00:25:32

Yeah.

Cheuk: 00:25:32

Yeah.

Cheuk: 00:25:32

Saying Happy New Year.

Cheuk: 00:25:34

And then I, I said, okay, this might be a good one.

Cheuk: 00:25:37

So I, I, I just walked into the restaurant and the restaurant

Cheuk: 00:25:40

owner is Chinese from Vietnam.

Cheuk: 00:25:42

He was actually a boat people.

Cheuk: 00:25:44

He fled Vietnam, but got accepted by Israel as one of the 400 at that time,

Cheuk: 00:25:50

400 Chinese immigrants coming into Israel.

Cheuk: 00:25:53

And then of course, I found my restaurant owner.

Cheuk: 00:25:56

and he does make a very, very good Chinese food, but of course,

Cheuk: 00:26:02

He has a cater to Israeli taste.

Cheuk: 00:26:04

So his restaurant is basically you know, halal and no pork.

Cheuk: 00:26:08

And no alcohol and so forth.

Cheuk: 00:26:11

But, so basically he has opened a Chinese restaurant that is basically very Israeli.

Cheuk: 00:26:17

But then the food I tasted are, are fairly authentic.

Cheuk: 00:26:20

The people

Bruce: 00:26:21

you met in your travels that you write about are just fascinating.

Bruce: 00:26:24

I love your storytelling.

Bruce: 00:26:26

You've eaten all over the globe.

Bruce: 00:26:27

Can.

Bruce: 00:26:29

Have some advice for travelers who are looking for great food

Bruce: 00:26:34

that's off the beaten path, and also maybe even off the menu,

Cheuk: 00:26:37

be adventurous.

Cheuk: 00:26:38

And you know, you never know what you got.

Cheuk: 00:26:40

I, I, in, in South Africa, I had a dish called ostrich meat in black bean sauce.

Cheuk: 00:26:45

It, it's like beef.

Cheuk: 00:26:46

Mm-hmm.

Cheuk: 00:26:47

. It's not, it's red meat.

Cheuk: 00:26:48

Actually, I thought, I didn't think ostrich meat would be red

Cheuk: 00:26:50

meat, but it is and done that up.

Cheuk: 00:26:53

It's no different from a beef with black bean.

Cheuk: 00:26:56

. So you never know what you're gonna get, but certainly, you know, if you got turned

Cheuk: 00:27:01

off by ostrich, then you, you certainly won't have the experience that I had of

Cheuk: 00:27:05

trying something new and adventurous.

Cheuk: 00:27:08

And the other advice I would say, if, if you go to a, a, a fairly quote unquote

Cheuk: 00:27:12

authentic Chinese restaurant, look at what the other Chinese are eating.

Cheuk: 00:27:15

Don't be shy about asking the restaurant owners if they say, Hey,

Cheuk: 00:27:19

can I have something off the menu?

Cheuk: 00:27:21

Because that's what I do when I travel.

Cheuk: 00:27:23

I, I, I, I run around and I, I would poke my head into the kitchen and say,

Cheuk: 00:27:28

can you make me something authentic?

Cheuk: 00:27:31

Announcing that to them that I'm a obviously Chinese.

Cheuk: 00:27:34

I want my real Chinese food.

Cheuk: 00:27:36

Yeah.

Cheuk: 00:27:36

So don't serve anything on the menu.

Cheuk: 00:27:38

When you

Bruce: 00:27:38

would do that, would you ask this question in Chinese or

Bruce: 00:27:42

the language of the place you are?

Cheuk: 00:27:44

Whatever.

Cheuk: 00:27:44

I can detect . Okay.

Cheuk: 00:27:45

I can, I'm, I'm pretty good at detecting where people are coming from.

Cheuk: 00:27:50

And of course, even within Chinese there are different dialects.

Cheuk: 00:27:53

True.

Cheuk: 00:27:54

So you have to kind of, you know, know that you hit the right dialect.

Cheuk: 00:27:58

But certainly I think showing my face and just announcing them

Cheuk: 00:28:02

in whatever language that I am.

Cheuk: 00:28:03

A also in overseas Chinese, I am a part of the member of the di Chinese diaspora.

Cheuk: 00:28:10

that gets me welcome everywhere.

Bruce: 00:28:12

And do you have a favorite dish?

Bruce: 00:28:14

And if you do, does that dish differ from country to country

Bruce: 00:28:19

that you've traveled in?

Cheuk: 00:28:19

My favorite dish is pork belly brace, pork belly.

Cheuk: 00:28:22

There are different styles of pork belly, but certainly the haka.

Cheuk: 00:28:26

Pork belly is the kind of the standard bearer.

Cheuk: 00:28:30

A actually, surprisingly I found this wonderful pork belly in, in Mumbai,

Cheuk: 00:28:34

India, in Mauritius and in Peru.

Cheuk: 00:28:38

And in

Bruce: 00:28:39

each of those places were they preparing the pork belly with the

Bruce: 00:28:42

preserved mustard greens with the macai.

Bruce: 00:28:45

So they were able to find those ingredients and, and offer that

Bruce: 00:28:48

up even in other, around the.

Cheuk: 00:28:50

That's right.

Cheuk: 00:28:51

Hey, you know your, you know your pork belly

Cheuk: 00:28:54

. Bruce: I do know my pork belly.

Cheuk: 00:28:55

It is also one of my favorite dishes to make and to eat.

Cheuk: 00:29:00

Oh man.

Cheuk: 00:29:00

Chuck, this has been so much fun talking about your travels and your

Cheuk: 00:29:05

experiences with Chinese food, your book.

Cheuk: 00:29:07

Have you eaten yet?

Cheuk: 00:29:08

Stories from Chinese restaurants around the world.

Cheuk: 00:29:11

Is your experience, your conversations with these Chinese restaurant

Cheuk: 00:29:15

owners around the world, what they went through, how they have

Cheuk: 00:29:19

assimilated into communities, how Chinese food is the link that joins

Cheuk: 00:29:24

so many people around the world.

Cheuk: 00:29:26

Thank you for spending some time with me this morning, and

Cheuk: 00:29:27

thank you for this amazing book.

Cheuk: 00:29:29

Thank

Cheuk: 00:29:30

you for having me.

Cheuk: 00:29:31

I

Mark: 00:29:31

think probably when we travel, we eat at more Chinese restaurants than

Mark: 00:29:37

we eat at any other kind of restaurant.

Mark: 00:29:40

It's

Bruce: 00:29:40

fascinating how the Chinese diaspora is so focused on food and

Bruce: 00:29:44

that, you know, that is such a way.

Bruce: 00:29:46

To gain a toehold into new cultures.

Bruce: 00:29:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Mark: 00:29:50

yeah.

Mark: 00:29:50

It, it, and it, it is a great way to experience a different

Mark: 00:29:56

kind of cuisine than you maybe.

Mark: 00:29:57

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:29:57

experience if you travel and, you know it's.

Mark: 00:30:01

Great.

Mark: 00:30:01

The Chinatown to support Chinatowns, they were heavy, hard hit during the pandemic

Mark: 00:30:07

because of kind of racist sentiment.

Mark: 00:30:10

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:30:10

, they were very hard hit.

Mark: 00:30:11

So it's great to support them.

Mark: 00:30:13

Grace Young is doing Hercule job supporting Chinatowns

Mark: 00:30:17

right now with her work.

Mark: 00:30:18

And then shout out to her for doing that.

Mark: 00:30:20

And I don't know, we eat a lot of Chinese

Bruce: 00:30:23

food.

Bruce: 00:30:23

We do now.

Bruce: 00:30:24

I also make a lot of Chinese food.

Bruce: 00:30:25

We You do.

Mark: 00:30:26

Alright.

Mark: 00:30:30

Before we get to our last segment, as is usual, let me say, it would

Mark: 00:30:34

be great if you could subscribe to or rate the podcast on any platform.

Mark: 00:30:39

You can rate it by giving it stars . Five stars are best.

Mark: 00:30:42

Thank you.

Mark: 00:30:43

And if you wanna drop down on the Apple platform or Audible, you can

Mark: 00:30:46

simply leave a comment that says something like, great podcast, just.

Mark: 00:30:51

Easy little bit.

Mark: 00:30:52

We'll do wonders for our unsupported podcast.

Mark: 00:30:55

That is otherwise just here because you're here.

Mark: 00:30:58

So shout out to us and we are shouting out to you right now.

Mark: 00:31:02

Our final segment as is traditional.

Mark: 00:31:05

What's making us happy in

Bruce: 00:31:06

food this week?

Bruce: 00:31:07

Kaza Mara Club, adult sodas there.

Bruce: 00:31:10

Non-alcoholic.

Bruce: 00:31:11

Have we done this?

Bruce: 00:31:11

We have.

Bruce: 00:31:12

We've actually talked about them as a main focus of the podcast

Bruce: 00:31:16

when we did non-alcoholic drinks, and these are really good there.

Bruce: 00:31:19

They're seltzers that are infused with herbs and spices

Bruce: 00:31:22

and they're not very sweet.

Bruce: 00:31:23

No.

Bruce: 00:31:24

And what I've decided I'd like best is mixing a little alcohol into them . And

Bruce: 00:31:28

so I take the one, it defeats the purpose.

Bruce: 00:31:30

No, it doesn't, cuz it's a beautiful base and I just pour a little

Bruce: 00:31:33

aperol into the one that is an orange base and Oh, my goodness's so

Mark: 00:31:38

delicious.

Mark: 00:31:38

Yeah.

Mark: 00:31:39

The, the Amro one is my favorite.

Mark: 00:31:41

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:31:41

. Very sophisticated.

Mark: 00:31:42

It's very adult.

Mark: 00:31:44

It's a little bitter.

Mark: 00:31:45

It's got no alcohol in it, and I am like 14 calories of can I know.

Mark: 00:31:50

I am really into it lately, and I think it's just kind of a brilliant alternative

Mark: 00:31:56

to not necessarily drinking all the time and I'm not being a prude, I.

Mark: 00:31:59

Person.

Mark: 00:31:59

I just had a dinner party.

Mark: 00:32:00

And let me just say that I as we used to say back in the day, tied one on

Mark: 00:32:05

such that the next day I was basically worthless till about one in the afternoon.

Mark: 00:32:08

So let me just say that I'm not being a prude about these things, but it is nice

Mark: 00:32:13

to dump the alcohol from your life and not always have it present at every turn.

Mark: 00:32:19

Oh, what's making me happy?

Mark: 00:32:20

Yeah.

Mark: 00:32:20

What is in food This week is actually a coconut custard pie.

Mark: 00:32:25

Mm.

Mark: 00:32:26

Yu We just had that dinner party where I said I tied one on, and Bruce made a

Mark: 00:32:29

four bone prime rib standing rib roasts.

Mark: 00:32:33

It was crazy.

Bruce: 00:32:34

We had 12 pounds

Mark: 00:32:34

of rib roasts.

Mark: 00:32:35

We had a bunch of people over.

Mark: 00:32:36

We played bridge, and then Bruce yanked out this giant rib roast out of the oven.

Mark: 00:32:40

It was delicious.

Mark: 00:32:41

He made a potato gant.

Mark: 00:32:43

But at the end of the dinner I made dessert and I made a coconut custard pie.

Mark: 00:32:47

It is such a beautiful custard.

Mark: 00:32:51

Eggy pot.

Mark: 00:32:52

Mm-hmm.

Mark: 00:32:52

. The recipe is in our cookbook, the Ultimate Cookbook, which

Mark: 00:32:55

we published years ago.

Mark: 00:32:57

That book, we at the time, thought was going to be the absolute

Mark: 00:33:01

defining moment of our career.

Mark: 00:33:03

It ended not.

Mark: 00:33:04

Not being so, but it is a 900 recipe cookbook of everything from soup

Mark: 00:33:09

to nuts to four different kinds of lasagnas and all that stuff.

Mark: 00:33:12

Anyway, there's a recipe in there for coconut custard

Mark: 00:33:14

pie, and it is so delicious.

Mark: 00:33:17

If you like egg custards, this is basically egg custard pie with lots of

Bruce: 00:33:21

coconuts.

Bruce: 00:33:21

That was so delicious.

Bruce: 00:33:22

That was like, I, I had to send everybody home with it because otherwise , otherwise

Bruce: 00:33:27

I would've eaten the entire thing we did.

Mark: 00:33:29

We had, we, we, we told them needed to take it or it had to go out

Mark: 00:33:32

of the trash cuz otherwise I would just eat it down with apparently

Mark: 00:33:36

another bottle of red wine that night.

Mark: 00:33:37

So.

Mark: 00:33:38

There you go.

Mark: 00:33:39

Well, thanks for being with us on our podcast this week.

Mark: 00:33:42

Thanks for taking part on this journey with us.

Mark: 00:33:45

We appreciate that you're here and we appreciate that in a

Mark: 00:33:48

very crowded world of podcasts.

Mark: 00:33:50

You have chosen to stick it out with us, and we hope you will

Bruce: 00:33:53

come back and download another episode next week and the

Bruce: 00:33:56

week after and the week after that.

Bruce: 00:33:57

So you won't miss a single episode of cooking with Bruce and Mark.